PLEASE NO

[Xenogenetic]

http://eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=59893
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO


NONONOONNONONONONONONO MAKE YOUR OWN VERSION OF STEAM PLEASE I REALLY DON'T LIKE STEAM A LOT
NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO NONONONONONONONONONONOONNONONONONO

Haha spammer is a n00b

[TheDarthJedi]

Originally posted by Xenogenetic:
http://eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=59893
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO


NONONOONNONONONONONONO MAKE YOUR OWN VERSION OF STEAM PLEASE I REALLY DON'T LIKE STEAM A LOT
NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO NONONONONONONONONONONOONNONONONONO

Haha spammer is a n00b



okay..
a sin2 type game with the hl 2 engine? SWEET

STEAM??

*BY ALL THE GODS IN THE HEAVENS WHY OH WHY OH WHY?? STEAM IS A CURSE APON HTE PLANET AND ALL LIFE EVERYWHERE! THE DEVELOPERS OF WHICH SHOULD BE DRUG OUT IN THE STREET, PISSED ON, SET ON FIRE, STEPPED ON, STABBED, DUNKED IN BOILING WATER, DROPPED FROM A VERY LARGE HEIGHT, AND SHOT REPEATADLY ON THEIR WAY TO THE GROUND!!!



oh yuck yuck yuck yuck yuck..

need i say that again?

YUCK.

[BKxRizzo99]

What don't you like about Steam?

[Xenogenetic]

Constant crashes, bugs, everything not working 100% of the time, stuff like that, oh wait another thing

VAC2 AND SUPRISE BANS FROM STEAM

Friends Network never up
Whenever I browse CS servers I get CS:S servers
Cant join a server by clicking on it anymore
And a lot of other things.

WON wasnt any better but maybe you could try and be like Bnet or something, that is a great online game playing service.

[BKxRizzo99]

Other than the friends list issue, I haven't had any real problems with Steam. None of the people I know that use Steam have had any difficulties with it either and I know they're capable users.

Not to say that there aren't any legitimate problems with Steam, but I have trouble believing the majority of people's complaints aren't due to user error. * Not referring to you guys here.

Anyway, the positives to Steam far outweigh the negatives in my eyes and I'm really excited about this announcement.

[ep911]

rizzo lives!
good to hear from ya...i agree,steam works fine for me.
never had any problems.but as far as the friends list...i dont have any friends so i dont need it. =(

[BKxRizzo99]

Bwaha! I'll live forever!

[warrior]

Just think about the install base of steam. If I were Ritual I'd make this decision 1000x's over. It's a no brainer.

Mark my words, the first week of SiN Episodes.. I bet it out sells the original SiN. I could be way off, but this just seems like a win win situation for Ritual.

I'm looking forward to it. I already have steam installed on 3 systems @ home and 1 @ work.

[Xenogenetic]

Fine, I just logged into steam, which I havent done for a while, and checked everything I complained about, seems Valve CAN fix things, make a SiN steam skin and everything will be perfect.

[thunder]

just enjoy the game, steam isn't the end of the world, i can only think the good people at ritual are shaking their heads at the anti-steam bias brewing up here.

[TheDarthJedi]

Originally posted by Xenogenetic:
Fine, I just logged into steam, which I havent done for a while, and checked everything I complained about, seems Valve CAN fix things, make a SiN steam skin and everything will be perfect.




oh so?

is it actually working better now?
i got pissed at the many troubles of even getting to play the SINGLE player verision of HL when my network was down for a few days.. (couldent log into steam, couldent play a single player game.. boy that irks the heck outta me)

yes, it claimed it could do 'offline' mode, but i've never seen that work.. not once.

granted. i havent checked it in about a month..
*sigh*

its not that i'm NOT going to buy it.. its Ritual.. its SiN.. i know I will....

but..

im just not a fan of steam..
bad first impression i guess.
heh

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[JezzyBall]

I'm no blatant fan boy. Let's just get that outta the way. It's way too early and not enough information is out yet for me to go off the deep end.

I don't have any issues with steam. It works fine for me.

I do understand why a developer would want to use a delivery system as such.

I do have faith in Rit as a studio. They have always been more internested in communicating with thier fans and showing up to ask our thoughts. Don't expect them to leave financial decisions to us however. It's thier meal ticket in the end.

In the end, it will be about a good story, good art, and playability (Single AND MULTIPLAYER!) If those work. People will play.

[noonah]

They actually have improved Steam alot but it's still buggy as hell..

Now Ritual for heavens sake do not forget how the SiN gameplay was and make something totally new!
And if you want the game to live, you're gonna have to focus 98% on multiplayer/ctf than single player. Because in gaming today, it's a fact, Multiplayer games sell. Hell, if it works well we might actually see a new CPL game. And THATS free publishing for your game /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DI_MeisterM]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
Originally posted by noonah:
They actually have improved Steam alot but it's still buggy as hell..

Now Ritual for heavens sake do not forget how the SiN gameplay was and make something totally new!
And if you want the game to live, you're gonna have to focus 98% on multiplayer/ctf than single player. Because in gaming today, it's a fact, Multiplayer games sell. Hell, if it works well we might actually see a new CPL game. And THATS free publishing for your game /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there's not just one problem, but I mention one: strafe jumps aren't possible in the "normal" Source Engine. It was one main gameplay features of SiN's very good multiplayer part.

[TheDarthJedi]

Originally posted by noonah:
They actually have improved Steam alot but it's still buggy as hell..

Now Ritual for heavens sake do not forget how the SiN gameplay was and make something totally new!
And if you want the game to live, you're gonna have to focus 98% on multiplayer/ctf than single player. Because in gaming today, it's a fact, Multiplayer games sell. Hell, if it works well we might actually see a new CPL game. And THATS free publishing for your game /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif



honestly, I PREFER a nice solid single player game, over multiplayer any day.

HL2.. I highly enjoyed.. will I ever play it multi? NO.
I do not like counterstrike, in any way,shape,or form...
Stick to a Strong singleplayer that was as fun and amusing as the original SiN...

but, I do agree that fun DM and CTF can make or break the game.
All I'd as there, as long as its like the original, I'm happy /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

(spry 2! spry 2!!)

[sayNO2steam]

no in either scenarios!
neither steam from valve
neither a steam clone from ritual or any other developer

steam is wrong!
steam is bad for us pc gamers
yes its good for developers but they can't force changes
upon us only cause it benefits them
the benefits has to be mutual, for them and also for us
if they introduce a technology like steam that damages us
doesn't matter how good it is for them cause it simply can
not be applied!
we can't let abusive technologies like steam dominate the
pc game market!
we must fight to protect our own rights!

[phxTOM]

[b]honestly, I PREFER a nice solid single player game, over multiplayer any day.



hmm, i played single player maybe less than 10 hours and multplayer maybe less than 1000 hours (or maybe more) /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[RATBURN360]

/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Come on Ritual, just finish the whole game first! I refuse to call this game "SiN Episodes"... I want Sin 2 /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[JezzyBall]

Originally posted by sayNO2steam:
no in either scenarios!
neither steam from valve
neither a steam clone from ritual or any other developer

steam is wrong!
steam is bad for us pc gamers
yes its good for developers but they can't force changes
upon us only cause it benefits them
the benefits has to be mutual, for them and also for us
if they introduce a technology like steam that damages us
doesn't matter how good it is for them cause it simply can
not be applied!
we can't let abusive technologies like steam dominate the
pc game market!
we must fight to protect our own rights!



This is a load of hit and run trolling. Provide some basis and proof for these comments. There are NONE.

How can a vehicle that removes the middle and allows artists to get thier work directly to the people be bad? No more EA or Activision pusing for early releases, Sin wouldn't even get relased without this vehicle. Saying it doesn't benifit us is laughable. We get less edited content, titles and stories that may not be commercially viable for big studios (Think Independant Films)

How does Steam Abuse and Damage us?

Have you actually used it? Millions have never had issues. I acknowledge bugs, but bugs are in just about every freakin game out there and usually because some publisher pushed for an early release. I open steam get content play games and shut it down - NO ISSUES.

Your obviously and bandwagon bitcher without a solid reason....wait and see - when the product comes out. Then only one group gets the glory or the blame. Ritual.

I think they'd want it that way.

Go away troll.

[MysterD]

Well, here's what I don't like about Steam:
1.Background issues:

Steam will run in the background period (unless you turn it off via MSConfig) It's trying to be a RAM hog, but you can prevent that to an extent.

Steam will run in the background whenever you play HL2 (or any other Steam-based game). RAM hog.

2.Updating

Steam doesn't ask you if you want to update your game, it auto-updates on you w/out warning, often -- this is uncalled for, more so, on the SP portion of Half-Life 2. I shouldn't have to be forced to update HL2 for the SP product, if I want to or not. It should ASK me if I want to or not -- you should update, of course, but it sholdn't just do it for me suddenly. Single player portions of games should not make me deal w/ the Internet unless I so choose to -- hence the word Single in Single Player.

Now, on Multiplayer portions, the auto-updating makes more sense to me -- b/c for Multiplayer, you need a Net connection to play the game. Though, I should be warned that this game needs and update and then once I agree to it, the game will just do it.

3.What if Valve Closes?

Not going to happen soon, but just for the sake of argument, since that say might come some NUMEROUS years down the road say Valve closes their doors tomorrow for whatever reason -- they quit gaming, they lost $, whatever the reason is -- don't matter, all we know is Valve's gone.

Now, Half-Life 2 does work offline (for some). I've had it work offline, once my DSL connection to the Net's shut off. So, we're all set, there -- I think, unless some other issue arises.

What happens to all the Half-Life 2 players who want to play Half-Life 2 on MP? Steam is Valve's core, so what happens now? Will Steam be removed? Or will they release a patch so the MP portion of the game can run independantly of Steam? Or are we not stuck w/ a MP portion that won't work b/c Valve left the business?

[Sonic_Wang]

Originally posted by JezzyBall:
This is a load of hit and run trolling. Provide some basis and proof for these comments. There are NONE
.
.
.
Go away troll.



I reckon he's some arsehole from Vivendi! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[JezzyBall]

Originally posted by MysterD:
Well, here's what I don't like about Steam:
1.Background issues:

Steam will run in the background period (unless you turn it off via MSConfig) It's trying to be a RAM hog, but you can prevent that to an extent.

Steam will run in the background whenever you play HL2 (or any other Steam-based game). RAM hog.

2.Updating

Steam doesn't ask you if you want to update your game, it auto-updates on you w/out warning, often -- this is uncalled for, more so, on the SP portion of Half-Life 2. I shouldn't have to be forced to update HL2 for the SP product, if I want to or not. It should ASK me if I want to or not -- you should update, of course, but it sholdn't just do it for me suddenly. Single player portions of games should not make me deal w/ the Internet unless I so choose to -- hence the word Single in Single Player.

Now, on Multiplayer portions, the auto-updating makes more sense to me -- b/c for Multiplayer, you need a Net connection to play the game. Though, I should be warned that this game needs and update and then once I agree to it, the game will just do it.

3.What if Valve Closes?

Not going to happen soon, but just for the sake of argument, since that say might come some NUMEROUS years down the road say Valve closes their doors tomorrow for whatever reason -- they quit gaming, they lost $, whatever the reason is -- don't matter, all we know is Valve's gone.

Now, Half-Life 2 does work offline (for some). I've had it work offline, once my DSL connection to the Net's shut off. So, we're all set, there -- I think, unless some other issue arises.

What happens to all the Half-Life 2 players who want to play Half-Life 2 on MP? Steam is Valve's core, so what happens now? Will Steam be removed? Or will they release a patch so the MP portion of the game can run independantly of Steam? Or are we not stuck w/ a MP portion that won't work b/c Valve left the business?





I respect your opinion.

1. All you have to do is shut is down. You don't have to use ms config. (At least not on my system Xp Pro)

2. Ok. You don't like this, I do. I don't want to have to go to some DL site to register or pay to get patches. I Like it automatic and have no issues.

3. Ok. This is a little weak. Could happen....but I think these type of content delivery systems are here to stay and only get better by the day.

[sayNO2steam]

Originally posted by JezzyBall:

&gt; How can a vehicle that removes the middle and allows artists
&gt; to get thier work directly to the people be bad? No more EA

that vehicle is bad cause:
its closed and proprietary
its controlled by a single company
it kills pc games as physical packaged box products
it forces everyone, let me repeat everyone to take the same
route, to use the same vehicle and takes away all other choices
that vehicle is basically called MONOPOLY!

&gt; stories that may not be commercially viable for big studios
&gt; (Think Independant Films)

no, its not independent... its VALVE DEPENDENCY
you choose steam you became valve dependant!

&gt; Your obviously and bandwagon bitcher without a solid
&gt; reason....wait and see - when the product comes out. Then
&gt; only one group gets the glory or the blame. Ritual.

don't you see my only issue is not with the actual product
i own sin, i bought sin, i patched sin, i played sin!
i enjoyed sin so i love the idea of a sequel!
i want to buy and play a sin sequel!
my only problem is the distribution
my only complain is ritual abandoning the traditional way of
selling pc games and adopting the new intrusive and extremely
monopolistic thing called steam

&gt; I think they'd want it that way.

i'm a ritual customer
i bought and played ritual past pc games
i only came to this group showing my disappointment for ritual
choosing steam as the way to sell and make us play their games
so i'm only asking that the sin sequel will be sold the same
as the original sin

[Grash]

Originally posted by MysterD:2.Updating
...this is uncalled for, more so, on the SP portion of Half-Life 2.



The reason SP HL2 is updated so often becuase it is the core engine for Source. Thus an engine change is needed to CS:S or HL2DM, HL2 must also be changed as well.

Remember Valve is still using a smilar structure from HL1 where there's the Engine and then there are folders for each game and mod. When the engine needs to be updated, it registers in steam as updating HL2.

[Xenogenetic]

Originally posted by sayNO2steam:

...i only came to this group showing my disappointment for ritual
choosing steam as the way to sell and make us play their games...



Ritual is not making you play their game through steam, there is an option to buy it in stores but its so much easier to use steam. I used to hate steam but its been fixed up a lot lately and buying games through it is easier than the store. I don't see why you would want the actual box or physical CD if you can just download it. Steam lets you back up your games on a disc, and if your HD is destroyed and your CDs scratched all you have to do is download it again. Doesnt seem that hard or punishing to me, but then again I might just be a retard!

[Varsity]

In my experience with Steam (even though I say it mysef, I'm among the leading authorities on the service outside Valve) hardly anyone has problems with it, except if it goes down or something which is rare enough to forget about. It's always problems with its unsuitable use in retail HL2. If Steam had not been on store-shelf copies of HL2 only the people with extreme to the point of delusional views like, ahem, sayNO2steam would be bothered. We're already seeing a shift in the opinions of the normal people as the thread goes on, you'll note. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[TheDarthJedi]

Originally posted by sayNO2steam:

so i'm only asking that the sin sequel will be sold the same
as the original sin



okay, so rushed out the door by a publisher before its ready (against rituals wishes) with game breaking bugs?

sure.
they'll get right on that.

[Grandpapa]

I really don't understand this whining about steaming of sin episodes. Only thing that i could complain about steam, is that it's having a slow loadup on my computer. However, as a diehard sinfan, i'm really happy about ritual getting a way to release sin 2. I agree that steam should have other payment options too, since it seems that most people don't have credit cards. And about the price,20 bucks, well ritual, keep those episodes coming /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif At least we have sin sequel now, that we have waited so damn long /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[TheDarthJedi]

Originally posted by Grandpapa:
At least we have sin sequel now, that we have waited so damn long /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif



amen to that!

[sayNO2steam]

Originally posted by Grandpapa:

&gt; I really don't understand this whining about steaming of sin

you don't understand why all the whining about steam... ok let
me give you some help
. did you know not every single pc gamer has internet connection
and without it you will not be able to buy play or patch a steam
based game?
. did you know you cannot play a single player game like half
life 2 without having to humiliate yourself and ask permission to
use it before?
. did you know you cannot get patches in individual files so you
can apply them manually and without having to be connected to the
net, and valve forces you to get everything from steam and be
always connected
. did you know downloading a full game via steam using a dial-up
can take weeks! yes WEEKS!
. did you know some gamers who bought half-life 2 in a retail
store and have dialup needed many long hours some even 6 or more
hours to complete the humiliating first time ask for permission to
use and mandatory updates only to start playing the game? waiting
6 hours to start a game! is this reasonable?
. did you know you have to identify yourself in steam and no longer
can you play game ANONYMOUSLY?
. did you know to buy games via steam you must have a credit card
and do you think every single pc gamer has a credit card?
. did you know steam has extra hidden costs like paying for net and
needing a dvd recorder and dvd blank media to make your own backup
so it doesn't cost 50 bucks to play half-life 2 but much more
. did you know half-life 2 retail has no warning about steam in its
cover and don't you think that is a clear abuse of consumer rights
and it made the germany authorities intervene by forcing changes
into it?
. did you know the retail publisher of half-life 2 vivendi gave up
completely selling the game cause it was obvious valve was using the
retail channel to infected steam into gamers when its a technology
that ultimately wants to kill retail?
. did you know steam is trying to kill the traditional way of sell
pc games in a retail store in a packaged box physical media like a
cd or a dvd and the majority of gamers rather want to have it than
to download game?
. did you know half-life 2 can only be played via steam so gamers
have no choice and like myself that doesn't like it and don't agree
with the philosophy being steam we are forced to not being able to
play it when we waited 6 long years for a half-life sequel to be
available?
. did you know steam based pc games cannot be sold in the second
hand market? so we loose a good cheap alternative market for games
. did you know ultimately steam is the first step into making pc
games a service based entertainment and not everyone is whiling
to accept it?
is this enough for you or do i need to write more against steam?
i could go on and on and on about steam... but one thing i now know
those fanatics about steam are totally blind to the complaints...
it really doesn't matter for them all the problems pc gamers face
with steam they simply don't care and for them any pc gamer has to
accept valve way, has to accept the NEW RULES valve is setting and
we must comply and loyally obey and stay quiet
i will never do that, i will never obey valve and be enslaved by a
abusive system like steam and either will i be quiet about it
steam never! NEVER!

[JezzyBall]

Originally posted by sayNO2steam:
Originally posted by Grandpapa:

&gt; I really don't understand this whining about steaming of sin

you don't understand why all the whining about steam... ok let
me give you some help
. did you know not every single pc gamer has internet connection
and without it you will not be able to buy play or patch a steam
based game?
. did you know you cannot play a single player game like half
life 2 without having to humiliate yourself and ask permission to
use it before?
. did you know you cannot get patches in individual files so you
can apply them manually and without having to be connected to the
net, and valve forces you to get everything from steam and be
always connected
. did you know downloading a full game via steam using a dial-up
can take weeks! yes WEEKS!
. did you know some gamers who bought half-life 2 in a retail
store and have dialup needed many long hours some even 6 or more
hours to complete the humiliating first time ask for permission to
use and mandatory updates only to start playing the game? waiting
6 hours to start a game! is this reasonable?
. did you know you have to identify yourself in steam and no longer
can you play game ANONYMOUSLY?
. did you know to buy games via steam you must have a credit card
and do you think every single pc gamer has a credit card?
. did you know steam has extra hidden costs like paying for net and
needing a dvd recorder and dvd blank media to make your own backup
so it doesn't cost 50 bucks to play half-life 2 but much more
. did you know half-life 2 retail has no warning about steam in its
cover and don't you think that is a clear abuse of consumer rights
and it made the germany authorities intervene by forcing changes
into it?
. did you know the retail publisher of half-life 2 vivendi gave up
completely selling the game cause it was obvious valve was using the
retail channel to infected steam into gamers when its a technology
that ultimately wants to kill retail?
. did you know steam is trying to kill the traditional way of sell
pc games in a retail store in a packaged box physical media like a
cd or a dvd and the majority of gamers rather want to have it than
to download game?
. did you know half-life 2 can only be played via steam so gamers
have no choice and like myself that doesn't like it and don't agree
with the philosophy being steam we are forced to not being able to
play it when we waited 6 long years for a half-life sequel to be
available?
. did you know steam based pc games cannot be sold in the second
hand market? so we loose a good cheap alternative market for games
. did you know ultimately steam is the first step into making pc
games a service based entertainment and not everyone is whiling
to accept it?
is this enough for you or do i need to write more against steam?
i could go on and on and on about steam... but one thing i now know
those fanatics about steam are totally blind to the complaints...
it really doesn't matter for them all the problems pc gamers face
with steam they simply don't care and for them any pc gamer has to
accept valve way, has to accept the NEW RULES valve is setting and
we must comply and loyally obey and stay quiet
i will never do that, i will never obey valve and be enslaved by a
abusive system like steam and either will i be quiet about it
steam never! NEVER!



Shouldn't you be posting in a Who shot Kennedy forum....my God man.. Take your pills and go away. That's the biggest load of crap I've seen since the elephant parade left Broadway....

[DI_MeisterM]

I read every point carefully, and in about everything he's right. It's a perfect describtion of the Steam I know and I got similar expierence in some points.

[a_nevels666]

Originally posted by DI_MeisterM:
I read every point carefully, and in about everything he's right. It's a perfect describtion of the Steam I know and I got similar expierence in some points.



Not really, most of his points are weak. (not to mention poorly spelled...)

For example:
". did you know you cannot play a single player game like half
life 2 without having to humiliate yourself and ask permission to use it before?"

So what, with every other game you have to enter the registration code and you're forced to insert the CD/DVD every time you want to play the game.

". did you know you cannot get patches in individual files so you can apply them manually and without having to be connected to the net, and valve forces you to get everything from steam and be always connected"

You can play Steam games offline as well. And why would you want to get patches manually? It's much easier it the game auto-patches itself, because then everyone always has the latest patch, and you don't have to manually look for/install the patches.

". did you know downloading a full game via steam using a dial-up can take weeks! yes WEEKS!"

If you have dial-up you can just buy the retail version.

[DI_MeisterM]

I think with...

". did you know you cannot play a single player game like half
life 2 without having to humiliate yourself and ask permission to use it before?"

..he means, that if Steam isn't available (like many times) you can't play the game you want. For example I can play my SiN1 everytime I want, but in Steam I can only play if this service is available, or use the very buggy offline function, and even there, a game could stay forever at 99% complete status and can't be use if your PC isn't connected to the internet.

Sure, with the patches i don't care, these aren't really problems. Aswell the low speed connection, this isn't a problem for me aswell.

[a_nevels666]

Originally posted by DI_MeisterM:
I think with...

". did you know you cannot play a single player game like half
life 2 without having to humiliate yourself and ask permission to use it before?"

..he means, that if Steam isn't available (like many times) you can't play the game you want. For example I can play my SiN1 everytime I want, but in Steam I can only play if this service is available, or use the very buggy offline function, and even there, a game could stay forever at 99% complete status and can't be use if your PC isn't connected to the internet.

Sure, with the patches i don't care, these aren't really problems. Aswell the low speed connection, this isn't a problem for me aswell.



I've never had an instance where Steam wasn't available, except for that first day when Half-life 2 was released. But maybe I was just lucky.

[Xenogenetic]

I have never not been able to log onto steam unless my internet was down.

[Apprentice]

SIN on the Source engine is pretty intersting but using Steam to distribute the game is probably going to be Ritual's biggest mistake, if not the actual downfall.

In its almost two years of existance, I have never come across a system that is so vulnerable and easy to bypass as Steam has proven to be. In the past two years, VALVe has made little to no success in combatting this kind of fraud. I admit, piracy is something that has existed for as long as software itself exists and will always exists, but has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects that Steam has to offer ?? I think not.

Not only piracy is an issue to be concerned about, the stability and availability is also something that is in need of carefull attention. In the same (almost) two years, VALVe has released two major titles throughout the Steam network, namely Counter-Strike: Condition Zero and Half-Life 2 (+ add-on's) and in both cases, the actual release was crap at best. In both cases, legit players came across a tremendous amount of problems within the first 24 to 48 hours while attempting to play their newly or pre-ordered and pre-paid game (some reported to have waited longer then 48 hours before they were able to play their game(s)). Paying customers recieved countless times the error message "Game is unavailable" while attempting to play their game(s). Another frequent error message that appeared during the initial release period was "The server is too busy to handle your request". Did Ritual clearly think about what will happen on the actual release date and the first 48 hours after that date ?? I hope so, since I do believe that something similair will happen again . . .

This also takes me back to the whole issue of piracy. Especially in Half-Life 2's case (this goes also for Condition Zero), while legit players were unable to play their game(s), players who "aquired" the game(s) through different means, were in possession of a (pirated) copy who did work at all times, from which they have been able to play the game(s) almost instantaniously. Even today, this error message can appear whenever an update for a specific game is released and the past has proven over and over again that whenever one game is being updated, all games became unavailable. Again I ask Ritual if they ever have taken this issue under considered/advisement and not stared blindly into whatever they have seen at that point . . .

Not only piracy and availability is something to be considered (apart from the money involved). Another point of valid concern is stability of the Steam client itself, which has proven to be less then satisfactory over it's two year run. Eversince Steam was in beta stages, VALVe implemented a feature called "Friends" and eversince it was implemented and made available to the public, the feature didn't work that well if not at all. Even today, this feature (which is being advertised as fully working) is still way below the level then what can expected.

I know that Friends is something that is completely seporate from SIN, but Friends is not the only thing that has proven to be less then satisfactory. Another issue that concerns both Ritual and its potential customers, is the client's sensitivity for other third party software. In my years as a software user, I have never come across a piece of software that has proven to be so sensitive to other software programs as Steam has proven to be. In some cases, people are forced to disable either their firewall, anti-virus or other (protection) software in order to use Steam. The most notorious error message they recieved if they didn't disable that software, was the "JIT debugging must be enabled" message (or something similair, can't remember). Especially Windows XP users recieved or are still recieving this message and since Windows XP is one of the largest used operating system, the math of calculating a possible amount of users is fairly easy: lots!

Not only Windows XP users were/are suffering from this problem, users of other Windows versions ('98/ME, 2000, 2003) are also vulnerable to this problem, if the right (or wrong) program has been installed. This can vary from a simple program like Solitaire to the complete diversity that MS Office 2003 can offer. Altough VALVe has fixed a lot these issues, there are still a lot of people who still have to disable one or more software programs in order to use Steam and many people resent the fact that they are required to disable one or two programs in order to run a third (or fourth, etc). Again I ask Ritual if they clearly considered this . . .

I hope that someone or someones from Ritual can, is(/are) able to and will answers the questions that I have placed here, but then again I believe that it is mearly wishfull thinking on my part. That is, if Ritual is truely commited to its userbase and hasn't adopted VALVe's behaviour regarding community based questions as well as they did with both Steam and the Source engine . . .

On a personnal note, I do believe that Steam itself has failed. In its two years of existence, the only games that I have seen released were games that have been created by VALVe themselves and apart from the upcomming "Pirates of the burning sea" and now "SIN: Episodes", I have not come across another title developed by a third party game developer that are or will use Steam as primary platform for distribution. Can anyone name another ??

[DI_MeisterM]

Excellent summary!
Please read this carefully Ritual!

[Varsity]

Originally posted by Apprentice:
SIN on the Source engine is pretty intersting but using Steam to distribute the game is probably going to be Ritual's biggest mistake, if not the actual downfall.


So what do you suggest? Putting them in stores? FTP or BT downloads? The issues at CZ and HL2's launch (which were not bandwidth) having being long fixed, the episodes are not retail products, and they are considerably smaller than the other two games. Steam is ideal.


In the past two years, VALVe has made little to no success in combatting this kind of fraud.

...

In my years as a software user, I have never come across a piece of software that has proven to be so sensitive to other software programs as Steam has proven to be.

...

I do believe that Steam itself has failed. In its two years of existence, the only games that I have seen released were games that have been created by VALVe themselves and apart from the upcomming "Pirates of the burning sea" and now "SIN: Episodes", I have not come across another title developed by a third party game developer


Showing yourself up there a little, aren't we? No background knowledge or understanding of developer priorities, little experience with networked software and next to no understanding of the games industry.

[Apprentice]

Originally posted by Varsity:
So what do you suggest? Putting them in stores? FTP or BT downloads? The issues at CZ and HL2's launch (which were not bandwidth) having being long fixed, the episodes are not retail products, and they are considerably smaller than the other two games. Steam is ideal.


No, it's not, it's far from ideal. Many people still have problems with either the client, network or something else that prevents them from using Steam and/or playing their legally bought games (while pirated 'copies' do work at all times).



Showing yourself up there a little, aren't we? No background knowledge or understanding of developer priorities, little experience with networked software and next to no understanding of the games industry.


Do you have this knowledge then ?? Flaming me for knowing nothing is fairly easy for anyone to do but I don't see you coming with the answers. If you like to straighten me out, come with answers rather then stupid flames ...

[Varsity]

Originally posted by Apprentice:
No, it's not, it's far from ideal. Many people still have problems with either the client, network or something else that prevents them from using Steam and/or playing their legally bought games (while pirated 'copies' do work at all times).


So, again, what do you suggest? People with problems almost always have them because of Steam's silly implementation in HL2, which isn't the case here. If you have a connection problem, you will know about it long before you buy the game. 'Many' is also debatable: a high number, certainly, but a tiny, tiny proportion.



Originally posted by Apprentice:
Do you have this knowledge then ??


I'd say I do.

It is not possible to bypass Steam and play on legitimate servers without a legal copy of the game, and casual piracy has been eliminated (which is the biggest problem of all). These are the two aims of anti-piracy tools, because despite what they might like to think the people who steal games through P2P don't matter. There's also the fact that you can't buy a game, install it, then exploit the legal system by claiming a refund while continuing to play because it will be removed from your account when the next person tries to install.

All networking software sees users with connection issues. Steam is no different, and there are no known connection bugs with it - only other factors. And those other factors affect it so much, like all networked software, because the internet is such a huge and diverse place. Nobody has software to limit the number of rendering calculations, but plenty have firewalls.

And finally, Steam is a huge risk for developers and although there are early adopters (the announced ones, and several still under wraps) it will take several successes before it becomes popular, for the people that it aims at at least.

[Apprentice]

Originally posted by Varsity:
So, again, what do you suggest? People with problems almost always have them because of Steam's silly implementation in HL2, which isn't the case here. If you have a connection problem, you will know about it long before you buy the game. 'Many' is also debatable: a high number, certainly, but a tiny, tiny proportion.


Anything is better then Steam. Ritual isn't limited to the big publishers to publish their game, there are a lot of smaller publishers that might have interest within the to be published product and if that fails then they can easally decide to publish the game themselves.

And how would do you define 'tiny' ?? By the people that register to the Steam forums and inform/ask/whatever of their inability to use the client ?? That reflection is far from the truth, since everyone knows that a highly sophisticated propaganda machine is at work there that is specificly designed and targeted to place Steam into an artificial positive aspect. Look beyond that machine and see the truth . . .


It is not possible to bypass Steam and play on legitimate servers without a legal copy of the game, and casual piracy has been eliminated (which is the biggest problem of all). These are the two aims of anti-piracy tools, because despite what they might like to think the people who steal games through P2P don't matter.


Wrong! I ask you: How many titles are currently available through the Steam network ?? Ten ... twenty ??
And how many titles will become available ?? Four that I can name ...

Even today it is fairly easy for me to download all Steam based games from their legitimate content server(s) without every paying a single penny (or dime) and even after VALVe's attempt to stop players with a cracked version on their legit server network, I am still able to join those legit servers though it takes some work. VALVe did partly manage to close this hole but only eighteen months after Steam left beta stages. Eighteen months !! There is a lot I can do in eighteen months . . .

But the ability to play on legit servers with a cracked client(s) is something that is not interesting at this point. I have asked Ritual if they have clearly considered all aspects I have stated above and more importantly the aspect of people's capability to download the game from legit content servers without ever paying a penny (or dime). Also it has proven that Steam games are fairly easy to be detached from the Steam network dependance, thus creating a stand-alone version without ever needing to entangle itself into the network.


All networking software sees users with connection issues. Steam is no different, and there are no known connection bugs with it - only other factors. And those other factors affect it so much, like all networked software, because the internet is such a huge and diverse place. Nobody has software to limit the number of rendering calculations, but plenty have firewalls.


Then explain to me why Steam is the only program that has these issues with third party programs while other programs (like P2P, virus scanners and such) that uses a similair dependance on an internet connection don't seem to be bothered with the same kind of intervention . . .


And finally, Steam is a huge risk for developers and although there are early adopters (the announced ones, and several still under wraps) it will take several successes before it becomes popular, for the people that it aims at at least.


That might take a while, since all Steam releases has failed considerably . . .

[Xenogenetic]

Well, if you guys won't use steam, it just means I get to SiN before you! Do you realize that SiN Episodes would not be what it is, or not even happen at all if it wasnt for steam? Also, you are getting angry over the price, have you thought about what kind of computer will be required to run this game? I think if you have the money to upgrade you should have atleast 20 dollars extra at the end to buy the game. Finally, no credit cards in Europe? I HAVE ASKED 5 EUROPEANS FROM DIFFERENT COUNTRIES IF THE MAJORITY OF THE PUBLIC HAS CREDIT CARDS, GUESS WHAT? THEY SAID YES! So if you do not live in one of the major countries in Europe this doesn't apply to you, but don't say you are a major part of the target customers or that credit cards are an american-only thing, becuase its NOT TRUE. For those of us who get discouraged by long forum posts here are the bullets:
1) Steam has gotten much better
2) SiN Eps could not have been what it is without steam
3) $20 Is not a lot if you bought a comp that can run SiN Eps
4) A majority of Europeans have credit cards
PLEASE STOP THE POINTLESS FLAMING!

[Apprentice]

The silence if deafning . . .

Because apart from the issues states above, the Steam network also eliminates the requirement of additional storage space. The more "traditional" form of software piracy requires additional storage space either in the form of FTP server or your own HDD for the use of torrents. With Steam, that dependancy is removed by its utilization of content servers in which the downloadable content can be downloaded from and once that download is complete, people will have a working copy of the game(s).

Perhaps I should take this as a sign that Ritual isn't interested within the whole issue(s) stated above and already cut out their losses due from it. Another thought that can cross the mind of a potential buyer, is that Ritual believes that it won't happen to them, which is ignorant at best. Also it could lead to a sign that they approve software piracy rather then opposing it with an argumented discussion.

VALVe made the terrible mistake of not communicating with it's (potential) customers anymore regarding issues like the ones stated above (also various other issues, the list is long), which caused an increase in the use of pirated VALVe games and the various amount of cracked Steam clients due to the fact that people were frustrated that VALVe didn't address their concerns/problems. Will Ritual make the same mistake ?? I think they already have and if not, there is one way to prove it . . .

[Varsity]

Originally posted by Apprentice:
Anything is better then Steam. Ritual isn't limited to the big publishers to publish their game, there are a lot of smaller publishers that might have interest within the to be published product and if that fails then they can easally decide to publish the game themselves.


No rebuttal needed.


And how would do you define 'tiny' ?? By the people that register to the Steam forums and inform/ask/whatever of their inability to use the client ?? That reflection is far from the truth, since everyone knows that a highly sophisticated propaganda machine is at work there that is specificly designed and targeted to place Steam into an artificial positive aspect. Look beyond that machine and see the truth . . .


Likewise. Ignorance + paranoia = the Culture of Fear™.


I am still able to join those legit servers though it takes some work


You cannot.


the aspect of people's capability to download the game from legit content servers without ever paying a penny (or dime). Also it has proven that Steam games are fairly easy to be detached from the Steam network dependance, thus creating a stand-alone version without ever needing to entangle itself into the network.


Yes, singleplayer games can be detached. There is no online distribution channel in existence that does not have the same problem. And yes, you can download them from Steam - at least until that loophole is fixed. After which it will never be an issue.


Then explain to me why Steam is the only program that has these issues with third party programs


It is not. You might have had (or convinced yourself you have had) problems with Steam and nothing else: the next person has had no problems with Steam and endless issues with other software.


That might take a while, since all Steam releases has failed considerably . . .


Quotes like this are among the reasons why you aren’t the one making the games.

[Apprentice]

Originally posted by Varsity:

I am still able to join those legit servers though it takes some work


You cannot.


Oh, yes I can !! I can still download and play on legit servers without a legit account and if I am able and capable of doing it, so can others. If you don't believe me, try it yourself some time. You might be surprised how easy it is and how little VALVe is capable and willing to do anything against it . . .

[Varsity]

From what I can see, you need a copy of HL1 on an existing Steam account before you can trick the Steam servers. The process happens entirely on those servers, which being in Valve's control can be fixed - and probably are, freqently. Right?

Either way, the internet pirates still don't matter. They would not buy the game anyway.

[Apprentice]

Originally posted by Varsity:
From what I can see, you need a copy of HL1 on an existing Steam account before you can trick the Steam servers. The process happens entirely on those servers, which being in Valve's control can be fixed - and probably are, freqently. Right?


Exactly, from what you can see . . .


Either way, the internet pirates still don't matter. They would not buy the game anyway.


You're right about that, I grant you that. Those pirates won't buy the game anyway and they have just been given the means to aquire a future game more simpler then humanly possible . . .

[Varsity]

At least until it is fixed.

[Grandpapa]

Since i haven't had any remarkable problems with steam, i can't flame it. Sorry guy's that i can't share your opinions. It's not perfect, i know, but it's one way (and only?) to get sin(2)episodes, so it's good enough for me and many others. To be honest, it should be so that anyone can buy it, whether having credit cards or not, maybe there will be solutions for it in the near future. So, since ritual has decided to steam it, i'll use that option.

[Apprentice]

Originally posted by Varsity:
At least until it is fixed.


Which might take a very long while, given the past two years as primary example of how vulnerable the system was and still is . . .

[Varsity]

I don't know when this new hole was discovered but before it Steam, though not HL1, had been secure for at least a year.

[Apprentice]

Over a thousand views since I posted my questions and still no response from Ritual. Makes me considering to spend my money on other games who's questions are being answered and who's concerns being addressed by it's developer and aquire this developer's title through different means. Tell me, why should I spend money on a game if my questions and concerns aren't answered by its developer ?? What kind of signal would give to Ritual's potential customer base ??

So be it . . .

If a software developer is not interested with the questions, comments and concerns from it's potential userbase, then they are also clearly not interested within the money they can gain from the same potential userbase.

[doomdragon]

What question? Why they are using steam?
Because they could not find a publisher that would just release a Sin2 without insisting on the rights for the Sin universe or possible sequels.
They just want to keep control over their own creative property.

[DrWoo McM]

Originally posted by Apprentice:
Over a thousand views since I posted my questions and still no response from Ritual. Makes me considering to spend my money on other games who's questions are being answered and who's concerns being addressed by it's developer and aquire this developer's title through different means. Tell me, why should I spend money on a game if my questions and concerns aren't answered by its developer ?? What kind of signal would give to Ritual's potential customer base ??

So be it . . .

If a software developer is not interested with the questions, comments and concerns from it's potential userbase, then they are also clearly not interested within the money they can gain from the same potential userbase.



Well, perhaps you should take it as a sign! It’s obvious that you aren’t real crazy over steam or what it stands for, so take this as your opportunity to go hang out in another studio’s forums and banter over their upcoming next release. Or you can probably wait until all 6 episodes are complete and pickup a copy of the game in the stores.

Personally I don’t think its any sign of the quality of the people at Ritual just because they haven’t answered your questions regarding Sin via steam. It is what it is and that’s about it.

Woo!

[DarkStar]

Posted by: DoomDragon

What question? Why they are using steam?
Because they could not find a publisher that would just release a Sin2 without insisting on the rights for the Sin universe or possible sequels.
They just want to keep control over their own creative property.



That basically sums it up. There's wouldn't be a Sin E. if it's wasn't for steam. It's not like Ritual just said "Hey let's use steam". They tried to shop it around, before going with Steam. Atleast that's my understanding.

Just be happy we're getting it at all.

[ParadoX]

Apprentice said:
&lt;A bunch of opinions and a single question&gt;

Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects that Steam has to offer ??


Yes.

[Apprentice]

Originally posted by ParadoX:
Yes.


Could you also elaborate on that ??

[jarro_2783]

Originally posted by ParadoX:

Apprentice said:
&lt;A bunch of opinions and a single question&gt;

Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects that Steam has to offer ??


Yes.



I don't think you have. I really don't think you actually realise how easy it is to pirate games using steam. It is no effort pirating. As apprentice said, the games you download are even in ready to use form, not some zip, rar, exe installer or iso. So it doesn't take extra hd space and you can play straight away. It is delivered straight from the legit content servers, so it is as fast as it possibly can be, and steam just makes it so easy to do so.

By using steam you have just opened your game up to be pirated by more people than any other game except for hl2 of course.

Just write your own content distribution system. What is so hard about writing a maybe 500 line program that compiles at 50kb and does the job. All it needs to do is send you key to the master server, it checks if it's valid and if it is it ties it to your account. Then whenever you login it checks with the master server what games you have. Master server sends games list, program lets you play. It could also check the record every time you make a download request. That way you can't fake to be legit. I don't know why steam wasn't made that way in the first place. What is all this nonsense with the main exe and dlls being 5mb, after disassembly it is clear that steam doesn't even use half the functions that are built into it, and the program sucks. The way I just described the program would use about 50kb of ram as opposed to steams 50mb, use no cpu and would actually prevent piracy.
As for updates, you could make it download actual patches with an installer, and ask the user first. Not some stupid system that just automatically downloads stuff, and say you have the files on a cd and you format your computer, you can't keep the patch because there is no patch file. So you are stuck with having to download the whole patch again.

[a_nevels666]

Originally posted by jarro_2783:

Originally posted by ParadoX:

Apprentice said:
&lt;A bunch of opinions and a single question&gt;

Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects that Steam has to offer ??


Yes.



I don't think you have. I really don't think you actually realise how easy it is to pirate games using steam. It is no effort pirating. As apprentice said, the games you download are even in ready to use form, not some zip, rar, exe installer or iso. So it doesn't take extra hd space and you can play straight away. It is delivered straight from the legit content servers, so it is as fast as it possibly can be, and steam just makes it so easy to do so.

By using steam you have just opened your game up to be pirated by more people than any other game except for hl2 of course.

Just write your own content distribution system. What is so hard about writing a maybe 500 line program that compiles at 50kb and does the job. All it needs to do is send you key to the master server, it checks if it's valid and if it is it ties it to your account. Then whenever you login it checks with the master server what games you have. Master server sends games list, program lets you play. It could also check the record every time you make a download request. That way you can't fake to be legit. I don't know why steam wasn't made that way in the first place. What is all this nonsense with the main exe and dlls being 5mb, after disassembly it is clear that steam doesn't even use half the functions that are built into it, and the program sucks. The way I just described the program would use about 50kb of ram as opposed to steams 50mb, use no cpu and would actually prevent piracy.
As for updates, you could make it download actual patches with an installer, and ask the user first. Not some stupid system that just automatically downloads stuff, and say you have the files on a cd and you format your computer, you can't keep the patch because there is no patch file. So you are stuck with having to download the whole patch again.



Dude, you seriously think they haven't considered that yet?

Even if they did go to the trouble of writing their own content distibution system, you think theirs would somehow be immune to being hacked?

No system is impossible to hack and as long as a program stops casual piracy, it's already succesfull. Steam helped prevent plenty of piracy.

[Apprentice]

Originally posted by a_nevels666:
Steam helped prevent plenty of piracy.


OMG what did you take today ?? :')

[JezzyBall]

Originally posted by Apprentice:

Originally posted by a_nevels666:
Steam helped prevent plenty of piracy.


OMG what did you take today ?? :')



You steam trolls really need to find somewhere else to roam.

http://www.gettingit.com/static/internetforassholes_usenet.html

You rant and spew and no one really gives a damn. Welcome to my ignore list.

[jarro_2783]

Welcome to my ignore list


Yeah, whatever, good for you.
The content management system I just proposed would be difficult to hack and would work a lot better than steam. Before you try and tell me I'm wrong, I have quite a bit of experience in programming and I know what I'm talking about.
I also think you don't what you are talking about when you say steam has stopped casual pirating. Because it hasn't. It has made casual pirating more easy. You go to a certain forum (which I won't mention here), and download a little crack they have and there you have it. Sounds pretty casual to me. It was harder when they had things like cd checks to get around, that was less than casual, steam is casual.

We are not steam trolls, we are realistic, we actually know how ridiculous steam is and aren't hiding behind our pretense of a "perfect steam" that the rest of you obviously are.

[DrWoo McM]

Originally posted by jarro_2783:

Welcome to my ignore list


Yeah, whatever, good for you.
The content management system I just proposed would be difficult to hack and would work a lot better than steam. Before you try and tell me I'm wrong , I have quite a bit of experience in programming and I know what I'm talking about.
I also think you don't what you are talking about when you say steam has stopped casual pirating. Because it hasn't. It has made casual pirating more easy. You go to a certain forum (which I won't mention here), and download a little crack they have and there you have it. Sounds pretty casual to me. It was harder when they had things like cd checks to get around, that was less than casual, steam is casual.

We are not steam trolls, we are realistic, we actually know how ridiculous steam is and aren't hiding behind our pretense of a "perfect steam" that the rest of you obviously are.

<font color="black"> </font>

Your wrong!

Like it or not Steam is the defacto standard in CMS’s today, so why should Ritual go out of there way to write their own? Even more, why in the world would they try and compete with the company that they are licensing the game engine from? Dude, I’m glad you write code because you clearly don’t have any business sense. Let Ritual focus in on build content, not a content management system.

[Apprentice]

Originally posted by DrWoo McM:
Like it or not Steam is the defacto standard in CMS’s today, so why should Ritual go out of there way to write their own? Even more, why in the world would they try and compete with the company that they are licensing the game engine from? Dude, I’m glad you write code because you clearly don’t have any business sense. Let Ritual focus in on build content, not a content management system.


Steam and the Source engine are two seporate items, which can be licenced as such. Take for example "Pirates of the burning sea", which will use Steam as primary distribution platform but does not use the Source engine. An example for the other way around is "Vampire the Masqerade: Bloodlines", which uses the Source engine but doesn't utilize Steam as distribution platform.

Even if Ritual decided to create an own platform to release their games as an competitor for Steam, there would be no reason for VALVe to reject Ritual's apply for licencing the Source engine. That such a thing would happen due to VALVe's oversized ego is another story . . .

[jarro_2783]

You clearly don't know what you are talking about. It would be more business sense to make their own. It would seriously take someone like two days at the most. Then they would make more money from the prevention of piracy than they lost by spending two days writing their own content distribution system.
The other option is to not have a content distribution system and stick with the good old days of putting a game in a box on a shelf.

[DrWoo McM]

Originally posted by jarro_2783:
The other option is to not have a content distribution system and stick with the good old days of putting a game in a box on a shelf.



Listen script kiddy, don't you realize that this isn't an option for them. As for writing their own CMS, you being a coder should realize that the code is a small piece of the total package. They have to build a support system around their code for all the consumers that would use their CMS. I'll say it again. You have no business sense.

[Xenogenetic]

Oh thats not true, he knows games go in boxes.

[ninken]

Its coming out threw steam first, then in stores later on, buy it anyway you like! How else do you propose a episodic game to be release with user input. If they release in stores it will be 2years a episode! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Nothing you can say or post is going to change it.

Now Steam is in question if its able to handle it, or if the bugs are worked out. Only time will tell!

NUFF SAID this topic is over!

[Xenogenetic]

Only badman decides when its over, but until then this is the first thread I started that has been a "popular topic".

[Disneyland]

Why is it that I have been using Steam for a full year now, and I've never had slow downloads, never had crashes -- in fact, never had a negative experience? I'm totally anal about web clients, tunnels and gaming services too. I would have removed it at the first sign of inconvenience. I have, quite literally, been 100% pleased with the functionality of Steam. I agree that it could use a more appealing skin set, but otherwise it does everything I need. As for not being able to play single player content when offline: the integrity of the product's security checks through Steam are crucial, irrespective of the type of gaming you intend to do. I'm totally fine with having to run Steam (initially) for a Valve game start-up.

How odd that a small group of people would be so vocally negative about Steam when millions of players are using it to connect to rousing games of CS: Source and HL2: Deathmatch every night, without problem nor complaint. Surely with games this huge and popular, a service's failings (i.e., your claims of Steam's incompetence) would be an enormous issue. Why am I not seeing it in the headlines? Why is Steam still successful and trusted? Why is Ritual going to be using Steam?

Because it works, obviously. Because Ritual trusts in the credibility and integrity of the service. Because Valve has offered to foster independent developers by publishing their works directly to players' homes and indie developers can enjoy unheard of royalty benefits and creative control. And because Ritual will help to encourage other idie developers to try new publishing methods. All it takes is one big hit and the floodgates will open. SiN Episodes is that hit.

Jesus, people.

[Xenogenetic]

Welllllll, either you are lying, or these people really like their boxes.

[jarro_2783]

I'm not a little script kiddie, and I know more about business sense than you think. All you have to do is set up the system and make sure the servers stay up, after that you can just leave it.
I'm not even saying steam is such a bad thing in itself, it has it's issues because it was badly written, but it would do the job. The main thing is that it is so easy to pirate that they would prevent more piracy by writing their own that actually worked.

[JezzyBall]

Originally posted by Disneyland:
Why is it that I have been using Steam for a full year now, and I've never had slow downloads, never had crashes -- in fact, never had a negative experience? I'm totally anal about web clients, tunnels and gaming services too. I would have removed it at the first sign of inconvenience. I have, quite literally, been 100% pleased with the functionality of Steam. I agree that it could use a more appealing skin set, but otherwise it does everything I need. As for not being able to play single player content when offline: the integrity of the product's security checks through Steam are crucial, irrespective of the type of gaming you intend to do. I'm totally fine with having to run Steam (initially) for a Valve game start-up.

How odd that a small group of people would be so vocally negative about Steam when millions of players are using it to connect to rousing games of CS: Source and HL2: Deathmatch every night, without problem nor complaint. Surely with games this huge and popular, a service's failings (i.e., your claims of Steam's incompetence) would be an enormous issue. Why am I not seeing it in the headlines? Why is Steam still successful and trusted? Why is Ritual going to be using Steam?

Because it works, obviously. Because Ritual trusts in the credibility and integrity of the service. Because Valve has offered to foster independent developers by publishing their works directly to players' homes and indie developers can enjoy unheard of royalty benefits and creative control. And because Ritual will help to encourage other idie developers to try new publishing methods. All it takes is one big hit and the floodgates will open. SiN Episodes is that hit.

Jesus, people.



[censored] Amen. I'm going to Disneyland!!!!!

[Michael_Russell]

Originally posted by jarro_2783:
I'm not a little script kiddie, and I know more about business sense than you think. All you have to do is set up the system and make sure the servers stay up, after that you can just leave it.
I'm not even saying steam is such a bad thing in itself, it has it's issues because it was badly written, but it would do the job. The main thing is that it is so easy to pirate that they would prevent more piracy by writing their own that actually worked.


Short answer, no, it's not that simple.

Content distribution systems are incredibly difficult to get right. Once you make something like that publicly available, your workload and responsibility goes up significantly. To do what you propose, we would need to, at minimum...

[breathe in]

...write a client that allows the user to download content from a secured server, allow secure logins, hire customer service representatives to help with lost and stolen logins and login problems, prevent reverse-engineering tools such as SoftICE from running, maintain security on the servers, allow patches to be distributed from the same server in the smallest form factor possible, intercept calls to the file system from applications launched via the interface, either decrypt files on the fly or use a server call to verify the user has access to the file in question, load-balance these server calls across a server farm, keep data on all of these servers in sync so that a valid call won't fail, incorporate some sort of piracy detection mechanism, integrate some sort of multiplayer cheat detection mechanism, create a secure payment system that follows all applicable local, regional, state, national and international laws, dedicate developers to maintaining the client and updating it with fixes and workarounds as hackers find ways around the system, maintain security on personally identifiable information, hire additional system administrators to constantly monitor the system for attacks, purchase several sets of redundant servers, pay to co-locate these servers at various geographical locations as well as on major Internet backbones, pay for the bandwidth used by these servers, try to ensure that a DDoS attack couldn't stop our users from using the software, add enhanced anti-intrusion software to the servers themselves to detect local point-of-presence attacks by server-room employees who have a personal grudge against us because they had to wait 40 minutes to load level 1 of SiN eight years ago, and after all that, hope we have enough money left to actually write a game.

[whew...]

As hard as it is to write a content distribution system, it's even harder to write a decent anti-piracy system. There are reasons that most developers use off-the-shelf copy protection. If given a choice between focusing on making the game fun and making the game copy-proof, most developers will choose to focus on making the game fun, because being copy-proof only helps if your product is one people would actually buy.

That's what we're doing. We're focusing on making this game the best possible game we can make. You may think that all of the above is simple to handle, but every moment that we focus on any of the above is a moment that we aren't polishing the hell out of this game.

Anyway, this is my last post on the matter. My efforts are better spent making sure that our games knock your socks off, so that's what I'm going to do.

[NeoK]

Amen to that
It's the game(play) which is important.To me it doesn't matter how it's distributed; i'll get the game anyway.
On a positive sidenote; distributing via steam does get a lot of media attention.

[jarro_2783]

so in other words it's not that hard. The anti piracy thing isn't needed because what I just described does the job. To stop ddos you can drop icmp packets and don't use udp, so drop all udp as well, and drop everything that requests more than 10 requests within a few seconds or something like that.
The anti cheat you could do separately, but isn't needed as most games don't have it. Yes you would have to check the user has access to the file requested, that is part of it, but it would work better than steam does, it gives you the file you request because it assumes if you are requesting you must be allowed to.
You can also do a hash on every piece to make sure it downloaded correctly, unlike steam which gets corrupt often (it happened to me, had to re download the whole gcf).

As for preventing softice from decompiling (like obfuscating the code etc), you might as well give people the code, because if you write it properly, having the client source code won't tell them anything. It all needs to be done server side, and make it very secure, don't assume a user has access to anything, always check.

What I'm saying is that if you sat down and tried to work it out it wouldn't be as hard as you think, and you should be able to make a system that works better than steam does which prevents piracy. The main thing is that steam doesn't prevent piracy and if that is what you want then your game will be pirated.

[DrWoo McM]

Originally posted by jarro_2783:
so in other words it's not that hard. The anti piracy thing isn't needed because what I just described does the job. To stop ddos you can drop icmp packets and don't use udp, so drop all udp as well, and drop everything that requests more than 10 requests within a few seconds or something like that.
The anti cheat you could do separately, but isn't needed as most games don't have it. Yes you would have to check the user has access to the file requested, that is part of it, but it would work better than steam does, it gives you the file you request because it assumes if you are requesting you must be allowed to.
You can also do a hash on every piece to make sure it downloaded correctly, unlike steam which gets corrupt often (it happened to me, had to re download the whole gcf).

As for preventing softice from decompiling (like obfuscating the code etc), you might as well give people the code, because if you write it properly, having the client source code won't tell them anything. It all needs to be done server side, and make it very secure, don't assume a user has access to anything, always check.

What I'm saying is that if you sat down and tried to work it out it wouldn't be as hard as you think, and you should be able to make a system that works better than steam does which prevents piracy. The main thing is that steam doesn't prevent piracy and if that is what you want then your game will be pirated.



Blah Blah Blah! You didn't read Michael post did you?

I think the most important thing here is that they are more interested in focusing their time and effort on the game play.

[JimmyC]

Originally posted by jarro_2783:
What I'm saying is that if you sat down and tried to work it out it wouldn't be as hard as you think, and you should be able to make a system that works better than steam does which prevents piracy.


I personally am very glad that Ritual has chosen to be in the business of making games rather than the business of improving other people's technologies.

If you want to reinvent the wheel and come up with a distribution system that's better than Steam, I'd say go for it. If it's as easy as you say you should be up and running in no time. Then you can license your content delivery system to other companies and make a fortune.

[jarro_2783]

maybe I will write my own. But not write now, maybe later.
This discussion is going no where, I have said my bit, I quit.