Discussion on Pricing

[Riddled]

Just want to know what the rest of the SiN community think about the current approximate pricing of SiN Episodes. Is twenty dollars respectable in your eyes for an average of six hours gameplay (assuming singleplayer)? I hope to this time around the modding takes off and that the quality of the multiplayer excels its ancestor. I'm not particularly bothered about the singleplayer unless it slaps Half-life 2 in the face with a very large trout.

Personally I will pay this amount because:
A) I'm british.
B) Elexis rocks.
C) They are using an up-to-date engine and will be graphically stunning.

[Xenogenetic]

As long as it has multiplayer I will be fine, and twenty dollars is cheap, 40 for 12 hours of gameplay, I beat HL2 in like 7 hours and that cost 60.

[TheDarthJedi]

yea multiplayer (deathmatch/ctf) is a MUST.

w/o that i'd really feel like im being jipped.

sure would like to not have to log into steam though...

i do not like steam sam i am

[Onden]

On other forums some people are making the point that there have been full retail $50 games that have provided barely more than 8-12 hours. Unreal 2 and Max Payne 2 being good examples, but I think people did think those were rip offs so they're not such a good argument.

Off hand $20 does seem like a bit much. The other thing is that you're not getting any kind of physical media. No discs, no boxes, and no instructions means no publishing costs so you'd think it be cheaper based on that.

Then again their audience is also somewhat limited. Sure some people will download Steam specific to get the Sin Episodes (provided they're good!), but for the most part I'd suspect most purchasers will be those who already own Steam. Granted based on Counter Strike players and Half-Life 2 sales that's plenty of people, but still I suspect a minority of the potential retail audience. Smaller audience means the cost per unit has to be higher.

Ultimately whether or not they're worth it will all depend on the quality of the work. If those 6 hours are as good as or better than your average 6 hours of Half-Life 2's single player it will be worth it. If they're more like the last 6 hours of Sin - well then they're lucky if I'm willing to pay $5 /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[DI_MeisterM]

1.) I don't have any credit cards, because I'm student. So I can't pay it.
2.) I don't like Steam.
3.) I don't like the Source Engine like it was in HL2 or CS:S.
4.) I really want to play the SiN sequel. what should I do?

[JezzyBall]

Originally posted by DI_MeisterM:
1.) I don't have any credit cards, because I'm student. So I can't pay it.
2.) I don't like Steam.
3.) I don't like the Source Engine like it was in HL2 or CS:S.
4.) I really want to play the SiN sequel. what should I do?



1. Your going to need to establish credit at some point and manage it. I'd suggest getting a credit card (for life - not SiN).

2. Well that's your experience. I like it - but you'll have to choose. There may be a lot more information here that we just don't have either.....so wait and see.

3. The engine will be a highly modified version. Ritual did a great job with the engines they've modified in the past - so don't just assume you'll have similar look and feel.

4. Figure it out. As a second option you could get a job as a street hustler and give it up to some old guy for one steam account and a new graphics card?

/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[doomdragon]

Well, credit cards are relativly uncommon in Europe, except for the UK I think.
If you want to sell a decent ammount of games here, you have to look into different payment methods. Thats just how it is.
Its not a matter of pro and contra credit cards, people just dont own them and wont get them for a single game.

But there has not been any official statement about payment methods for SiN2 so lets just wait for that.
Halflife 2 was another case, it didnt need a wide range of payment methods because it still hit the stores and so credit cards were an option, not a must.

[Jerc]

Well, in France, everybody has a credit card, at least the people who can afford high end computer to play these games.

[Riddled]

Just wizzed myself through SiN and Wages, then watched the animated movie twice to refresh my memory entirely. I hope they import alot of the features they included in the original SiN such as:

-Locational visual damage
-An original soundtrack! (*Cough* Valve is naughty)
-Music that adjusts (Fighting, Stealth, Suprise, etc)
-A villian with dark motives and hidden agenda
-A villian which men (and women) can gark at
-The ability to alter the path you take by interacting
-Annoying one-liners and cusses
-The previous voices of Elexis, JC and Blade.

And then... Some things that they haven't done with SiN:

-Multiple endings (EG. Deus Ex)
-Player rewarded by for playing harder settings (EG. Halo)
-Full on Nudity* (EG. Max Payne 2 :P)
-An unexpected enemy (EG. Prince of Persia: WW)
-Mutants that you will actually hesitate to fire upon or in some cases run in the opposite direction to them (EG Sin the Movie)

* I could see hints of this when I saw the development renders.

If I see some of these things light up in the teasers or screenshots I'm certain to part with my money.

[Sonic_Wang]

Being in Australia, $20 USD is awesome, esspecially when getting it through steam. If it were sold retail in a box here, instead of using the current conversion rate, they'd just double the price because the AUD was about 50c USD for a long time, a while ago. Now it's has been hovering around 70-75c for quite a while (74.16) so i'd pay only $27 AUD for 6 hours gameplay (6 hours assumed) when HL2 retail costs 90-100 for ~15 hours gameplay. I also got HL2 on steam for about 60, i think. 30-40 dollars more for just a peice of paper (NO MANUAL!) and 6 cds is what i would call a freaking rip off.
I also just got my own credit card today. So things are looking good for me /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[sayNO2steam]

the pricing is simply too expensive

you can find thousands of proper "BOXED" pc game titles for
19.99 bucks which have at least a 25 to 30 hour gameplay

pricing a few 6 hours of gameplay for 20 bucks is inflating
pc game cost at least 4x times

but the problem is not the pricing, the problem is steam
steam is all wrong
no matter what shape they try to make it steam will always be
bad for pc gamers
even free i would say NO to it!

--
post made in a steam-free computer
i said "NO" to valve and steam

[M3rl1n]

Ahh, I’d like to know which games you’re playing because the only 15+ hour games I’ve played are RPG’s, 25+ usually means a Bioware RPG and there aren’t that many of them released, and they take forever to hit the bargain bin.

Most games are lucky to pass 10 hours of solid gameplay, especially if they are FPS.

If you’re talking in “casual game hours” I’d be willing to bet Ritual was talking in “serious/hardcore game hours”.

[JezzyBall]

Originally posted by sayNO2steam:
the pricing is simply too expensive

you can find thousands of proper "BOXED" pc game titles for
19.99 bucks which have at least a 25 to 30 hour gameplay

pricing a few 6 hours of gameplay for 20 bucks is inflating
pc game cost at least 4x times

but the problem is not the pricing, the problem is steam
steam is all wrong
no matter what shape they try to make it steam will always be
bad for pc gamers
even free i would say NO to it!

--
post made in a steam-free computer
i said "NO" to valve and steam



Explain how it's bad for PC Gamers?

Now I don't have to have a gazillion disks and boxes unless I want to....

Now I can get content updates patches, etc. from one place, automatically.

Now I can get titles that may not have been produced by "big" companies such as EA and I can support the artists and "Independant" titles.

The list goes on. I'm happy to bow to an argument that has FACTS and real solid basis....but your a 3-4 post troll.

[JimmyC]

I don't care for Steam but don't really have any solid reasons for that. It just feels like the companies have too much control over things. I like the idea of holding the CD in my hand and having the CD Key typed on the back of the case. When I want to play it everything is there - no worries about the company going under and not being able to activate the game or anything like that.

That said I don't really see why I wouldn't buy a game because it was using something like Steam. I have plenty of games that just don't work on my PC anymore because either WinXP or SP2 broke them. It would basically be the same thing if the company went under and I couldn't reactivate the game in the future.

As for the pricing, $20 for 6 hours of gameplay isn't too bad in my opinion. I just hope that those 6 hours of gameplay have some replayability. Lots of interactivity, secret and hidden areas, multiple possible paths through the levels, etc. If I run through the game once and there's nothing more to see (ala Unreal 2) I probably wouldn't buy the other episodes. Don't expect this would be a problem with a Ritual game though.

[MysterD]

Originally posted by JimmyC:
I like the idea of holding the CD in my hand and having the CD Key typed on the back of the case.


Me too. I have control fully over the game -- when I want to play it and everything.


When I want to play it everything is there - no worries about the company going under and not being able to activate the game or anything like that.


Agreed again.


That said I don't really see why I wouldn't buy a game because it was using something like Steam. I have plenty of games that just don't work on my PC anymore because either WinXP or SP2 broke them. It would basically be the same thing if the company went under and I couldn't reactivate the game in the future.


Well, you could dual boot Win 98 SE on your Win XP PC, right?
I've never tried it, myself -- but just a thought that popped in.


As for the pricing, $20 for 6 hours of gameplay isn't too bad in my opinion. I just hope that those 6 hours of gameplay have some replayability. Lots of interactivity, secret and hidden areas, multiple possible paths through the levels, etc. If I run through the game once and there's nothing more to see (ala Unreal 2) I probably wouldn't buy the other episodes. Don't expect this would be a problem with a Ritual game though.


That's $3.xx an hour.

Now, they said a 20-30 hour game is $50. If it's 20 hours, that's roughly $2.xx an hour. And most of these games, you can buy these at your local retailer so you actually feel like you own the product -- which for me, that's a plus.

Sin Episodes seems more expensive -- and it isn't on CD, if you go by the currently planned STEAM model.

But when it comes on DVD/CD and a retailer sells it, I might be interested in this.

[Sonic_Wang]

I used to think that i needed to have the physical disk, but i quickly grew out of it when i could play HL2 the second it was released (well, several minutes afterwards, as it decrypted the files). No this new method, i just don't like the manditoryness of steam. You MUST have it running to play a game. You MUST have it running to run the SDK. And when i moved and didn't have the internet for a while, i couldn't play HL2, because steam's offline mode doesn't work.

[MysterD]

Originally posted by Sonic_Wang:
I used to think that i needed to have the physical disk, but i quickly grew out of it when i could play HL2 the second it was released (well, several minutes afterwards, as it decrypted the files). No this new method, i just don't like the manditoryness of steam. You MUST have it running to play a game. You MUST have it running to run the SDK. And when i moved and didn't have the internet for a while, i couldn't play HL2, because steam's offline mode doesn't work.



It worked when I turned off my DSL connection.

If I recall, when you install Steam, there was a box they told you to click to Enable Offline Mode for HL2. I think it's in Steam Settings, somewhere. I'd have to look.

[Sonic_Wang]

Steam just doesn't load at all. It says it cannot find an internet connection then says it'll load in offline mode, but nothing happpens. It's not even loaded in the taskmanager. But it doesn't matter, soon i'll have internet back at home.

[JezzyBall]

Originally posted by MysterD:

Originally posted by JimmyC:
I like the idea of holding the CD in my hand and having the CD Key typed on the back of the case.


Me too. I have control fully over the game -- when I want to play it and everything.


When I want to play it everything is there - no worries about the company going under and not being able to activate the game or anything like that.


Agreed again.


That said I don't really see why I wouldn't buy a game because it was using something like Steam. I have plenty of games that just don't work on my PC anymore because either WinXP or SP2 broke them. It would basically be the same thing if the company went under and I couldn't reactivate the game in the future.


Well, you could dual boot Win 98 SE on your Win XP PC, right?
I've never tried it, myself -- but just a thought that popped in.


As for the pricing, $20 for 6 hours of gameplay isn't too bad in my opinion. I just hope that those 6 hours of gameplay have some replayability. Lots of interactivity, secret and hidden areas, multiple possible paths through the levels, etc. If I run through the game once and there's nothing more to see (ala Unreal 2) I probably wouldn't buy the other episodes. Don't expect this would be a problem with a Ritual game though.


That's $3.xx an hour.

Now, they said a 20-30 hour game is $50. If it's 20 hours, that's roughly $2.xx an hour. And most of these games, you can buy these at your local retailer so you actually feel like you own the product -- which for me, that's a plus.

Sin Episodes seems more expensive -- and it isn't on CD, if you go by the currently planned STEAM model.

But when it comes on DVD/CD and a retailer sells it, I might be interested in this.




I'll take your comments in order. The quoting quotes is making my eyes cross.

I've never had any game just pop up and start from Steam. I open Stema when I want to play and shut it down when I'm done.

When you want it everything is there? Really? Patches? Add on's mods? Me thinks not. The CD/DVD is usually out of date within weeks.

Can't run older games...(Speculation) I think we may have a better chance of gettin updates via a content system that developers (not publishers) have control over. How many times have you seen patches not supported by the publisher? Happens all the time.

20-30 hour Game? Wha? Maybe...but HL2 was at best 15 hours and was 50-60 bucks. I got through in like 7-8 hours. The 20$ is reasonable. Movies 7-8 bucks for 2 hours. DVD's 20 for 3-4 hours....etc.

[sayNO2steam]

Originally posted by JezzyBall:

> Explain how it's bad for PC Gamers?

steam is a completely new way of buying playing patching and
archiving pc games
everything with steam changes
its a complete revolution and in this case its main purpose
is to benefit developers and publishers giving them power and
control and damaging pc gamers by making them dependant and
submissive

bottom line steam take away choice for pc gamers and when that
happens its always bad, ALWAYS!

> Now I don't have to have a gazillion disks and boxes unless
> I want to....

please don't blame me if you live in a small tiny house

no box means "drm" technologies
i personally prefer a million time more having boxes than to
deal with intrusive "drm" technologies
i like buying a pc game in a box
i like a good well designed box cover
i like owning a pc game in a box
i like collecting pc games in a box
i will never see pc games without a box, never
i will never buy pc games as downloadable products
long live pc games as physical packaged box products!

> Now I can get content updates patches, etc. from one place,
> automatically.

not having patches available in individual files so you can
patch your games manually is for me unacceptable!
UNACCEPTABLE!

> Now I can get titles that may not have been produced by "big"
> companies such as EA and I can support the artists and
> "Independant" titles.

any developer choosing steam will never be "independent"
any developer choosing steam will be valve DEPENDANT
so you cannot put "independent" and steam in the same sentence

and i don't trust valve more than i trust ea or activision or
any other big pc game publisher
i also don't like big monopolistic ea but valve became just like
them
valve is trying to create a monopoly in pc games by concentrating
distribution to a single channel called steam... that is extremely
dangerous...
have you ever thought of the futuristic nightmare vision of the
pc game market being totally controlled by valve using steam?

valve is acting as the most monopolistic and dictatorship ever
in the pc game market... with steam they managed to beat ea at
least for now

ps: these monopolistic tendencies came obviously from the founder
of valve being a past microsoft employee

[Grash]

Originally posted by sayNO2steam:
> Explain how it's bad for PC Gamers?

steam is a completely new way of buying playing patching and
archiving pc games
everything with steam changes
its a complete revolution and in this case its main purpose
is to benefit developers and publishers ...


Can you explain the benefit this is for the publishers?


Originally posted by sayNO2steam:


valve is acting as the most monopolistic and dictatorship ever
in the pc game market... with steam they managed to beat ea at
least for now

ps: these monopolistic tendencies came obviously from the founder
of valve being a past microsoft employee



Right now, I'm going to say "Not It" to waking the troll from under's Bill goat Gruff's Bridge.

[JimmyC]

Originally posted by MysterD:
Well, you could dual boot Win 98 SE on your Win XP PC, right?
I've never tried it, myself -- but just a thought that popped in.


I used to do that. But you've got an inherinently insecure OS that isn't getting updates anymore. I get more and more nervous having an OS like that on my PC. I've been able to get quite a few of the games working under Linux using WINE, but I'm not crazy about Linux because it won't run the high end software that I've paid a lot of money for like 3ds Max. But that's really getting off topic.


Originally posted by JezzyBall:
When you want it everything is there? Really? Patches? Add on's mods? Me thinks not. The CD/DVD is usually out of date within weeks.


Out of date, but not unplayable. Most games are completely playable out of the box and you can always find the patches online. I also keep a library of the patches I like. There are a few games I have that I don't like the newest patch and instead use an older version because I consider it more fun. Can you do that with Half-Life 2? Kind of pertinent since Half Life is one of the games I usually use an older patch on.

But that's getting into symantecs. I'm not anti-steam systems. I just don't care for the control that is given up to the company running the system. Granted, systems like this are in their infancy and haven't been bad for the consumer as yet. But would you trust a company like EA Games to keep older games accessable? I could see them making older games unavailable as way to get people to buy their newer games. I could also see them charging you for each time you restart a game from the beginning like an arcade game. To a company only interested in making it's stocks rise, these would be very attractive business models. These are the types of things that I'm afraid of with authentication systems like Steam. Sadly, they undeniably are the future and if you won't accept that you'd better find another hobby.

[LeftE]

Originally posted by JimmyC:
Out of date, but not unplayable. Most games are completely playable out of the box and you can always find the patches online. I also keep a library of the patches I like. There are a few games I have that I don't like the newest patch and instead use an older version because I consider it more fun. Can you do that with Half-Life 2? Kind of pertinent since Half Life is one of the games I usually use an older patch on.

But that's getting into symantecs. I'm not anti-steam systems. I just don't care for the control that is given up to the company running the system. Granted, systems like this are in their infancy and haven't been bad for the consumer as yet. But would you trust a company like EA Games to keep older games accessable? I could see them making older games unavailable as way to get people to buy their newer games. I could also see them charging you for each time you restart a game from the beginning like an arcade game. To a company only interested in making it's stocks rise, these would be very attractive business models. These are the types of things that I'm afraid of with authentication systems like Steam. Sadly, they undeniably are the future and if you won't accept that you'd better find another hobby.


I would imagine (of course this is just speculation) that if a company like Valve were to go bankrupt, they would release all the relevant patches to the public (or sites like Fileshack, Filecloud, Tucows, etc.). In fact, I would be shocked if there weren't cause for some sort of lawsuit if they didn't. But who knows, it's not like anyone complains about not being able to patch the Wolfenstein 3D shareware floppies nowadays.

[sayNO2steam]

Originally posted by Grash:

> Can you explain the benefit this is for the publishers?

steam is nothing more than the first step to make pc games
a service
yes its any developers dream being able to sell software as
a service
what does software as a service benefit developers? everything!
what does software as a service mean to consumers? no freedom!
why do you think microsoft admires steam so much?

this first version of steam let you have the game in your own
computer and you can even back it up but do you think it will
always be that way? oh no it won't
you just wait until higher bandwidth is available for steam to
stop letting you store the file games on your local hard disk
and making it necessary loading from a central server every
single time you play a game

software as a service in pc games will mean:
. you will only play the games the developer wishes, so if they
decide to remove a old game so they can more easily sell a new
one they will stop everyone from playing it
. you will only play when the developer say so, so no longer
you will have the freedom to choose when to play
. you will only patch when the developer say so, so no longer
you will have the freedom to choose what version to have and
when to patch
. you will no longer be able to collect, archive and store your
own games cause you will not be able to keep anything from it
. you will no longer be able to control cost in games cause the
developers has all the power to impose new pricing
. you will no longer be able to play games anonymously so any
developer will know exactly what and how and when you have been
playing

bottom line, steam is the first step to make pc gamers total
SLAVES! submissive controlled consumers in the hands of developers
i will never exchange my own freedom and dignity to play games
i will never accept software as a service never!
i will never let developers make me a puppet in their hands

long live pc games in a self contained packaged box physical media
i will not accept pc games any other way!