Huge flaw in "players determine plot" feature!

[Onden]

The following quote comes from this preview (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=59937):

But perhaps the most interesting implication of Ritual's decision to go for broke on the Episodic Gaming front is that fans themselves will be able to influence the progression of forthcoming episodes. Apparently players will occasionally be forced into making choices, and depending on how the community reacts as a whole, certain things will change in the next. For example, if you choose to save a key character their appearance may well be different in the next episode than if you had chosen to leave them to fend for themselves.

At first I thought this was cool, but the more I think about it, the more this sounds like a really bad idea.

So the majority determines some plot points of the next episode, but what if you're not part of that majority? Imagine you kill some character in one episode, but most people didn't, so in the next episode s/he suddenly shows up alive and well. There's the potential that the game will be totally inconsistent if you don't play it just like everyone else did.

This also completely kills replay value. Let's say your actions did correspond with the majority, but you're replaying the game and want to check out the other "path". Too bad, they only built the next episode for the majority path so now you have a choice in the game that's totally useless.

Why bother having choices in the game at all if you will only ever get to experience the outcome of one of those choices? It's more or less the same as not having a choice. It's like going to an ice cream stand saying you want chocolate, but the server hands you vanilla because the last dozen people got vanilla and because of that you can't get chocolate.

This is a flawed system, either they're going to have to implement the outcomes for all possible choices, or they might as well not bother giving us a choice.

[JezzyBall]

Originally posted by Onden:
The following quote comes from this preview (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=59937):

But perhaps the most interesting implication of Ritual's decision to go for broke on the Episodic Gaming front is that fans themselves will be able to influence the progression of forthcoming episodes. Apparently players will occasionally be forced into making choices, and depending on how the community reacts as a whole, certain things will change in the next. For example, if you choose to save a key character their appearance may well be different in the next episode than if you had chosen to leave them to fend for themselves.

At first I thought this was cool, but the more I think about it, the more this sounds like a really bad idea.

So the majority determines some plot points of the next episode, but what if you're not part of that majority? Imagine you kill some character in one episode, but most people didn't, so in the next episode s/he suddenly shows up alive and well. There's the potential that the game will be totally inconsistent if you don't play it just like everyone else did.

This also completely kills replay value. Let's say your actions did correspond with the majority, but you're replaying the game and want to check out the other "path". Too bad, they only built the next episode for the majority path so now you have a choice in the game that's totally useless.

Why bother having choices in the game at all if you will only ever get to experience the outcome of one of those choices? It's more or less the same as not having a choice. It's like going to an ice cream stand saying you want chocolate, but the server hands you vanilla because the last dozen people got vanilla and because of that you can't get chocolate.

This is a flawed system, either they're going to have to implement the outcomes for all possible choices, or they might as well not bother giving us a choice.




*sigh* Pure speculation on little information. Let the team do what they do and THEN let's have a go.

[RATBURN360]

I really wish they would just complete the whole game themselves and then release it on a shiny little DVD... I never liked steam, but if they want to use it with steam I dont care... I just want to be able to buy the game in stores.
The idea about players determining a plot sounds cool on paper like a lot of other stuff, but then when they try it they might find out it wasnt such a good idea. Like communism, it looked good on paper, but not in action.
XP

[Xenogenetic]

So we could make Elexis a stripper?

[M3rl1n]

Communism does work; there are many nations that have successfully used that form of government for many years. Very few systems are inherently flawed - it’s completely dependant on the people who are in control and the regular person under the system.

As for players affecting the story - I’m not sure about it either. Personally I'd rather have neutrality where my choices make little or no difference, then make choices that are ignored.

I think a better option would be to have player opinions affect side stories. So for example if you choose to kill someone that person may or may not show up in the next episode and/or may or may not be pissed at you, but its client side, and depending on popular opinion more effort might go into developing one side of that choice.

Baldur’s Gate 2 touched on this slightly - in the first BG you could kill Drizzt (sp?) and if you did when he showed up in BG2 he wasn't very happy about it, if you didn’t he would help you. It wasn’t a huge affect on the game, but it was sort of nice. Additionally they had the “pantaloon” quest which crossed all games and was dependant on player choice.

It also adds to the replay ability if you can explore all the sides of a choice.

/Edit - Actually I guess it could work both ways even when affecting major plot stories.

For example you get to the end of the episode and you’re facing off with the boss, you win; now you have a choice. You can kill him, or not. I choose not to so he gets away, but the majority chooses to so he dies.

It would have an immediate affect on the story because he wouldn’t show up in the next episode, but he could still show up later down the line in some form or another for those that choose not to kill him - it just wouldn’t be as central to the story as if the majority had chosen not to kill him.

[ninken]

This is how I think they are trying to say, Lets say we beat Episode 1, and it comes to a fork in the road. We take a online poll and pick what fork we would like to take.

It’s just like TV (example) American Idol after the performance you get to choose the winner. See ritual making Reality Gaming!!!!

Just give it a chance
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[RATBURN360]

How about, they finish the entire game, WITH many forks in the road per episode, and the full game comes with each of these forks in the road as entirely playable. If you play through one of the sides of the fork, you can finish it and goto the other to see what its about.
I prefer the kind of storytelling and gameplay that only a developer can provide, versus the games community. Im not saying the SiN community isn't bad, in fact I love everyone in it /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif, I'm just saying I prefer a game not come in a way which players play one episode and then determine how it continues. I mean, if ONLY SiN fans play this game, I expect nothing less than the best choices to happen, but if newbies to SiN play it, never playing the first one and everything, they might choose a wrong choice, considering they are the majority of players. With Steam, you never know though. It also depends on what kind of choices to vote we will be given. But I have to say, I'm glad to see a return of Elexis. Now then, they better not kill J.C. either /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif.
I really agree with Onden %100 on giving multiple choices when the next episode comes out, not just 1. At least 2 choices would be cool and 3 would be awesome. Retaining elements from SiN 1 would make SiN 2 a lot better. I still refuse to call it SiN Episodes. :O

Another thing I was wondering, is this Jessica chick the same Jessica from Wages of SiN, where Blade rescues her and takes her to HQ?

[BrushBaron]

Originally posted by Onden:

It's like going to an ice cream stand saying you want chocolate, but the server hands you vanilla because the last dozen people got vanilla and because of that you can't get chocolate.




That's why you get your friends to help you, have them stand in line before you, telling the Server they want chocolate and thus, you get chocolate. It's beautiful, isn't it?

[Riddled]

I smell multiple endings.

Regardless, one way to implement this (and I'm sure that Ritual have already figured this out this way or another) would be to give the player a situation at the end of each episode, BUT then leave it at a cliffhanger and give them a poll to choose what they would be most likely to do.

Example. Blade corners Elexis Sinclair and then...
1) Shoots at her
2) Announces his undying love for her
3) Turns traitor asking to join SiNtek

One with the most votes would decide the path of the following episode.

[Cobalt60]

what you are describing would still be a "linear" story.



I'm picturing a plot that is more like a "tapestry-of-events"
(where the main plot points are indeed scripted to happen in order..
.. but the user may or may not be witness to all of them (because some of them are all happening at the same "time" as each other, and you can't be in two places at once).

the timeline itself, would look kinda like a "Plinko" board--> each "Nail" on the Plinko represents an event in the story--> and "Time" flows from the top down.

you cannot control the flow of time (downward motion), but you can navigate the "timeline" latteraly (side-to-side) by making choices

from any given starting position (at the top of the board), 2 different users can take 'any number' of different paths, and still end up at the same place.

( or, if you like, at the same moment in "time" (story wise) 2 users might be on opposite sides of the "timeline" (travelling down opposite sides of the Plinko board), each witnessing different events, which are ALL part of the SAME ongoing plot; it would be impossible to witness everything, because again, you can't be in two places at once)

(( example : in the story of Lord of the Rings, perhaps your character would decide to follow Sam and Frodo; perhaps you would choose to join Merry instead , or follow Pippin, and have a completely different experience as the next guy on the LAN; but in the end you will still end up doing your part to save the shire.. and.. you WILL want to replay the game. heh)

----------------

^^ OK maybe thats not a very good example, because the scope of the LotR story is so.. epic.

but as long as each SiN Episode provides ~3 different ending points..
and as long as the Next Episode gives you ~3 corresponding starting points..
.. then the timeline of each episode can flow (like Plinko) with the user having enough freedom to navigate the timeline (latteraly) any way he sees fit.

a "poll" would not be necessary

($0.02)

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[RATBURN360]

As long as the game is really cool and stays true to the original formula I'll be happy! But I still don't like steam that much.

[JimmyC]

I like that idea. Right now, the stories and 99% of the details are set in stone by the developer before the game is even announced. This way people get a chance at influencing the story.

[RATBURN360]

As long as the players dont get to influence "SUPER MAJOR" things, such as the whole "Blade confesses her love for Elexis" thing I'll be happy. Blade wants Elexis to suffer... that and I'm sure he wouldn't mind getting a piece of that. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[doomdragon]

Well its not like ritual is giving away the complete control over their game to the players, they still decide what could happen in the first place and you chose one of the options.
So whats the problem when the majority of other players, maybe including yourself, does this decision instead of the gamedesigner alone like before?

I doubt it will be something plot-heavy like the killing of a major character that you directly chose, that would make the game inconsistant for several players.
I think it will be more like, for example a conversation with jessica cannon, where you can chose answers and based on that a lovestory could or could not develop in the later episodes.
But even killing a character based on decisions of the players could be possible if you do it right.
For example you have to prove your loyalty to a character in one episode and that then doesn't lead to his death directly, because some player would miss it that way, but it determines his destiny for the next episode. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
That way you could still make it consistent with the plot of the players who originally would have kept him alive.

[Onden]

Ok so there are ways to work around potential inconsistencies. However, that doesn't take away the fact that during a replay you effectively don't have a choice.

[doomdragon]

What's your point? You don't like the fact that you don't have a choice when replaying the episode so to avoid that you don't want any choice at all?
That lessens the fun during the first playing and doesnt help the replay value. So in which way would that be better? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Xenogenetic]

I hope a majority of the SiN Episodes players arent stupid and don't make boring decisions.

[Onden]

Originally posted by doomdragon:
What's your point? You don't like the fact that you don't have a choice when replaying the episode so to avoid that you don't want any choice at all?
That lessens the fun during the first playing and doesnt help the replay value. So in which way would that be better? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif


My point is that you never really have a choice. You only ever get to see one outcome no matter what, whether it's your first time through or your 20th time through.

[David_Grove]

For those of you who thnk about fork in the roads:

I honestly doubt that they would have this turn into that. I mean, in Half-Life 2 did you ever really see an opertunity where you had an option? It was always "Do this." Or "Kill him!" or something along those lines. This game will be flat out linear without a doubt in my mind.

I think what Ritual is trying to say is that the over all plot ideas will shift/bend to accomidate the players wants, like they want to see more driving and shooting action, they'll put that in, maybe an interesting plot twist? It might influence character development but it would have to be an entirely high demand, like close to 95% of the fans.

Anyway, I honestly doubt they're going to give the player much option for things in the games in way of forks in the road. That would be too diffcult to manage and it would upset too many people who didn't get their outcome.

Most first person shooters, save for Deus Ex, Morrowind (If you consider that a First Person Shooter) don't really give you options. A broad path maybe, but not options.

Edit: The only way I could see them putting forks in the road is basicly have it somewhere at the End of the Beginning but then you HAVE to do it near the end if you didn't do it at the beginning, at which point it could be a harder task to do. But they couldn't have it span beyond that 'episode' so it would have to be in a single sitting of the game.

Sarcastic Note: While I'm thinking about the term Episodes, will they have comercial breaks during the game? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Enough said.

[MadMax]

I would love to see commercials if they were tailored to the world of Sin, i.e. SinTEK, Freeport City Bank, Hardcorps... all of these companies advertising their services which you might even be able to use, but that would require an RPG component in the game.

[David_Grove]

Originally posted by MadMax:
I would love to see commercials if they were tailored to the world of Sin, i.e. SinTEK, Freeport City Bank, Hardcorps... all of these companies advertising their services which you might even be able to use, but that would require an RPG component in the game.



Actually that's not a bad idea. Post that as a suggestion, seriously. Never thought of that. Maybe you could see it on a TV screen or something like they did with Doom 3 and the UAC's ads. I wouldn't mind seeing that at all. It would add more personality to the world.

[Mincetro]

Using Source, the future episodes will probably be able to read the save game files from every other episode, and will probably determine all the triggers and variables set during those episodes. The Fork in the Road probably won't be as blatantly obvious as a forum poll.

Example:
Okay, You kill (NPC 1) and then you are surrounded by (Enemy 1) and are taken to (Sector 1). BUT, if you don't kill (NPC 1) You fight your way through (Enemy 1) and escape to (Sector 2). If you don't meet with (NPC 1) You will be found by (Enemy 2) and taken to (Sector 3). If you free (NPC 2) from (Sector 3) You find a Helicopter and escape to (Sector 4). If you don't free (NPC 2) you go to the Basement and find an elevator to (Sector 5) where you find (NPC 1) and escape back to (Sector 0) and try to escape to (Sector 2). If you reach the Airfield, you get to (Sector 2). If not, you swim to (Sector 6) and try to find your way to (Sector 2) from there.

Its really quite... uhh... actually it very confusing. I'll just leave it at that...