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Blueshade
01-08-2006, 03:31 PM
Depending on how you feel about it,heres a question for debate:

How do folks feel about DOWNLOADING their new games via source and not purchasing them from the store in a pretty box? As I write this I can look over to my 'games shelf' and proudly see my copies of HL2,Deus Ex,Splinter Cell etc etc.Those are solid real things that will always be there no matter what disasters might happen to my pc.So what do you reckon...?

Varsity
01-08-2006, 05:21 PM
You'll always have downloaded games too, no matter what disaster befalls your PC...or CD collection. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

It's clearly new to you, but digital distribution is something that has become quite accepted in gaming communites for its age, at least in terms of numbers. A quarter of HL2 sales were made through Steam: more or less a million in absolute numbers. That's fantastic for what is essentially the first time a major release has been made online.

In some ways, digital distribution is simply the next storage medium, up from flexies to floppies to CD to DVD. It will become a normal part of gaming in time, if it hasn't already.

JimmyC
01-08-2006, 05:30 PM
I had a problem with this for a while. But the copy protection on Half-Life 2's Collectors Edition DVD wouldn't allow it to run in my computer, so I had to return it. I was bitter for a long time about the experience, but I finally bought the Steam version. It was downloaded onto my computer within about an hour and a half. I just reinstalled my computer because I blew it up by doing something stupid and it took lessthan an hour to reinstall the game. Plus it installed Half-Life, Opposing Force, Blue Shift, Counter Strike and a bunch of mods during the same time because I entered my CD keys into Steam.

I like it. I only have to remember one password and all my games are back. I don't have to worry about where to keep all the jewel cases, DVD cases, whatever. I don't have to worry about the CD getting scratched or not being stored correctly.

On top of that, more money goes to the developers and less money goes into the pockets of some suit that has had a minimal role with the game. This gives the devs more freedom to explore new things and more money to hire more staff and make better games. Seems like the only people loosing out are the publishers, and I think that they're one of the big roadblocks to putting out new and experimental gaming ideas. It's a win-win for right now as far as I can see. We'll see how it works in a few years when there's 20 different content distributors and each wants to have something running in the background of your PC, but I'll worry about that when there's something to worry about.

Parnic
01-09-2006, 12:41 PM
For the die-hard "retail box" fans, it has been announced that SiNEps will be released at some point in the future as a box/collection-type deal. ParadoX confirmed in a recent interview that once the first few episodes are done, they will most likely be retail boxed and distributed that way. Granted, you'll have to wait a while for that, but then you can proudly display your SiNEps box alongside your others /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

As the previous poster basically said...online distribution rocks /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Xenogenetic
01-09-2006, 06:59 PM
I have a solution, if we pay shipping can we get a SiN:Episodes box? Not with a cd or anything, just a box to add to our collections?

ertertwert
01-09-2006, 08:53 PM
I prefer online shopping. If I can buy it online, I don't have to get up off my lazy ass. Bringing games to the online market is probably the smartest decision. Not to mention the fact that the devs get more money than the usual retail, then it REALLY makes sense.

Apprentice
01-09-2006, 09:57 PM
I prefer at always physical media. On-line transactions are nice, but I don't want to be dependant on a system that at times doesn't allow me to play my games when I want to play them and being left at their mercy for it . . .

LongFo
01-09-2006, 10:46 PM
I really like to get a cool box when I buy my games but I guess the future won“t let us have it /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif ....I understand there are advantages to online distribution and they can cut away alot of the cost but why don“t we see alot cheaper games this way , we only hear about making the games better ...!?

MeatPuppet
01-10-2006, 02:59 AM
You can burn your game files to a disk and print a nifty label for it. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Hmm,
Hey Romsteady, what if the community made some cool labels or box covers and Ritual chose the best to use on the retail version? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Michael_Russell
01-10-2006, 03:41 AM
Might be an interesting idea for a contest when it gets close.

Personally, I like the idea of Jessica Cannon on the box, but that's me. (grin)

CommanderZx2
01-10-2006, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by Michael_Russell:
Might be an interesting idea for a contest when it gets close.

Personally, I like the idea of Jessica Cannon on the box, but that's me. (grin)


That sounds like a great idea to relieve some boredom.

Anyone got a DVD case cover template that I can use to see where all the edges are and get the right scale? A nice high resolution one would be Preferable.

sayNO2steam
01-14-2006, 04:28 AM
Retail still remains the main market for PC Games.
Polls say 2 out of 3 still prefer buying Games in a physical format.
But adding new ways to sell games and giving more choice to consumers
is always good.
I personally prefer buying in physical format and will continue doing
so, but I think it is good PC Gamers having choice to buy via online
delivery but only if Retail still remains an independent choice for
those that prefer.
Online delivery can only be good if it adds, if it gives more choice
to consumers and not takes away choice from consumers.
What is essential is letting the market decide, letting PC Gamers
decide what is the way they want to buy PC Games and not force them
into systems they didn't ask for.

We all know Sin Episodes is being released via steam, but cause the
PC Game market is mainly Retail they will also release it via Retail
But the big question that I still didn't see Ritual replying is how
will they release it in Retail?
Will they release it in Retail just like Half-Life 2 was?
With Steam inside?
With product activation?
With need for internet access to install and play a single player game?
Who will be the publisher of the Retail version of Sin Episodes?
Will it be Valve? So now Valve is taking the place of publishers?

This I think is wrong, and that is why I still haven't bought and
consequently played Half-Life 2 cause I disagree with a Retail game
having product activation and requiring internet access to install
and play a single player game.

Blueshade I'm with you preferring PC Games in a CD/DVD and in a box but
not when they have product activation like Half-Life 2 has.
You talk about a disaster... well the copy you have of Half-Life 2 will
only install and play if Valve lets you, so with Half-Life 2 you are
always dependant on them to install and play there game now and in the
future.

What I want to hear from Ritual is:
They saying the Sin Episodes Retail version will not have steam
They saying the Sin Episodes Retail version will be published by Sin's
original publisher Activision and not by Valve
They saying the Sin Episodes Retail version will be a normal Retail
version without product activation or need for internet access to
install and play the single player portion of the game.

Ben583
01-14-2006, 05:55 AM
More Steam is good for me, they shall rule the world soon so you had better get used to it.

----------------------
STEAM FOREVER!

David
01-14-2006, 09:48 AM
lol haven't seen so many bshit in the same post since years.

it's all clear sir: episodes are release ONLY on steam as a content download. Every 3 episodes ritual will publish boxset in stores (ep1-2-3boxset ep4-5-6boxset and ep7-8-9 boxset).
chanches are that still those boxset will have a steam activation required.
so please stop your bshit and shut up thanks

JimmyC
01-14-2006, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by sayNO2steam:
This I think is wrong, and that is why I still haven't bought and consequently played Half-Life 2 cause I disagree with a Retail game having product activation and requiring internet access to install and play a single player game.



I know I shouldn't bother responing to this, but I am anyways.

What about all the business applications that require activation? (PhotoShop, MS Office, etc) And don't forget Windows XP and all future versions of Windows. Does it really matter that they allow you to activate over the phone instead of doing it automatically via the internet? The same thing is accomplished - you have to ask them to turn the product on after you paid for it. Internet activation is heck of a lot easier and faster than a phone activation. Also, you clearly have an internet connection and know how to use because you're posting here. I am just not seeing any merit to your arguments or your problems with Steam.

And online content delivery systems and DRM are coming. There's at least a half dozen companies actively working on creating these things already. And do you think that Microsoft and Sony aren't looking at activation schemes for consoles? You are either going to have to learn to live with software activation and verification or very quickly you're going to need a new hobby.

Xenogenetic
01-14-2006, 11:35 AM
Oh my, sayno2steam is back!

ertertwert
01-14-2006, 03:14 PM
I thought we got done with these stupid anti-Steam rants a year ago...

Stylsy
01-14-2006, 07:25 PM
::yawns::

Xenogenetic
01-14-2006, 08:06 PM
He was bound to comeback sometime. Just make sure when SiN Episodes is released not the tiniest thing goes wrong or he will be back again preaching his anti-steam message.

T0ssu
01-15-2006, 03:21 AM
there's nothing bad in steam but i allways liked to buy my games in retailboxes. I will buy and download my first episode from steam but i will buy that box where they publish it. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Apprentice
01-15-2006, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by Xenogenetic:
He was bound to comeback sometime. Just make sure when SiN Episodes is released not the tiniest thing goes wrong or he will be back again preaching his anti-steam message.


If he can come back. Most likely the forum will be down due to all the n00bs who wonder why they can't play their freshly bought game . . . /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Somehow I predict that Emergence's release will be identical to that of Half-Life 2 and Condition Zero. Legit players are unable to play their game ("Game is unavailable", "The server is too busy to handle your request") while the pirated version works and most likely pretty well too . . .

JimmyC
01-15-2006, 11:26 PM
The Lost Coast release experienced none of those problems. Granted, it's not as large as a full game, but everyone was downloading it the day it was released. Steam is going to be fine. It's matured a lot since they released HL2.

ertertwert
01-16-2006, 07:46 AM
I played HL2 the very second it was released and for the next few weeks. I never onced had any problems with Steam not being available.

David
01-16-2006, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by ertertwert:
I played HL2 the very second it was released and for the next few weeks. I never onced had any problems with Steam not being available.



never had any problem too, ever

a_nevels666
01-16-2006, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by David:
never had any problem too, ever



I had to wait an hour or so for activation when HL2 was released, but other than that it's been fine.

Blueshade
01-20-2006, 08:38 PM
Heh,Ive been away for a couple of weeks and thought I'd better check out my post here. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Yea I do like my retail boxes,having them lined up on a shelf which friends can see says a lot about you as a gamer.But what about turning this whole thing around.What are the advantages to the game developers when distributing their new game via STEAM?
Security is an obvious one - what with pirate copies of most 'top of the tree' games being readable available these days.A more secure way in which games can be distributed that ensures the developers get their money can only be a good thing.I cant think of a single reason that justifies playing games for free.

I would expect there to be quite a cut in distribution costs if delivering via STEAM too - no coverart/sleeve design to pay for/no CD/no expensive manual/shipping costs etc etc.So it sounds like the devs are getting a more secure way to push their games out with a better chance of ppl actually buying their games and at the same time they are saving on distribution costs.This is great news - for one reason(to my mind)

I dont work in the gameing idustry so I might have some of this wrong but anyway,here goes.Companies like Ritual and Valve who distribute their games via a system like STEAM are cutting out a particulerly nasty middleman.Anyone remember a bloody good game called Deus Ex? Yea? Remember its bloody awful sequel Deus Ex:Invisible War? Well,the sad fact is you may not since it was so bad(on PC anyway).The first game of these two was made specifically for pc and was quite a hit - I believe it received something like 35 Game of the Year awards.Deus Ex had obviously received a great deal of love and attention from its developers,ppl who cared for their creation and who wanted it to give the kind of experience they wated it to, to gamers .The second game on the other hand did nothing like it.For a start it was console based which meant that its enviroments were in complete contrast to the original game,having tiny areas to play in - in comparison and even loading times between much smaller levels.The game itself appeared to many to have been rushed out into production/distribution.

So why the rush and why on console when the original game had done so well doing the opposite? Well,to my thinking its that nasty middleman that it looks as though STEAM users will finally be able to cut loose - the publishers.Publishers who like their money ASAP.Who like their deadlinesto be sharp and punctual.Who perhaps dont particuarly care too much for the games content or playability - aka Deus Ex:Invisible War??

Well I dont know,as I said above I may some of that wrong,but this is for the moment how Im seeing it.Remember how much time Valve took to release HL2? The release date was their choice and just look at the game that resulted.If STEAM gives that kind of freedom to game developers then it has to be one of the most important game innovations in recent years - at the end of it all,it should mean we will be getting better games.What could be better than that! \o/

sayNO2steam
01-21-2006, 05:57 AM
Blueshade you raise alot of issues but you lack in all of
them depth.
Have you really analyzed and thought about all the issues
involving Steam and all the consequences it is bringing to
the PC Game market?
I sorry to say but the way you write makes me believe you
really didn't thought properly about everything involving
Steam...

- Importance of Developers are the same as PC Gamers
Yes Developers are very important, but we PC Gamers are also
as important.
PC Games don't exist without those that create them but also
don't exist without those that buy and play them.
Without PC Gamers there is no reason to make PC Games.
What I'm saying is yes Developers are important but we are
also as important, which makes us EQUAL PARTNERS!
Things cannot be changed in the PC Game market to favour one party
only and damaging the other.
Changes can't be made to favour Developers and damage PC Gamers
cause like I said PC Gamers and Developers are EQUAL PARTNERS
in the PC Game market.
So please don't ever justify changes simply cause they are "good"
for developers when those changes damage the other party us PC
Gamers.
Changes have to be made to the "good" of all the market which
has to ALWAYS include us PC Gamers.
To conclude, importance of developers EQUAL to importance of PC
Gamers.

- The problem of piracy must be fought by all
Piracy is extremely damaging to everyone including PC Gamers
themselves, the more the piracy the worse the PC Game market
gets, but justifying piracy to impose new rules and changes that
damage PC Gamers that I will not accept.
Like I said Developers are extremely important but we are also
as important, so a balance has to be reached between us both,
so no system to protect against piracy can be applied in the
PC Game market if it damages PC Gamers.
Piracy is still a big problem in PC Games so we all and this
also included PC Gamers themselves must fight against it.
I fight piracy in PC Games everyday. I buy all the games I play
with no exception at all, and I don't lend any of the titles I
buy to anyone, and after I played and finish the game I don't
sell them in the 2nd hand market but rather keep them all.
So I have a clear conscience, I do my duty to defend and protect
PC Games and I do it cause I want to, cause I feel its what is
best for me cause what I want is PC Games even better.
If every PC Gamers does its job defending PC Games and fighting
against the common enemy called piracy you bet we can make a
difference and at least diminish piracy to a level much less
damaging to the PC Game market.

- Product Activation in Retail PC Games is wrong and damaging
Like I said piracy is a very big problem and we must all fight
against it, and I try everyday to fight against piracy myself.
Now having said that I totally refuse, I repeat I completely
a utterly REFUSE to accept copy protection systems that apply
product activation and internet access to install and play a
single player PC Game in a Retail PC Game like Half-Life 2
Retail version has.
As a consumer and a PC Gamer, and someone that buys PC Games
I find it insulting and humiliating having to do a product
activation in a Retail PC Game I just bought.
Attention that this only applies to Retail PC Games cause they
are the only ones I buy, cause I do understand some kind of
product activation must be present in a online delivery system
but not in a Retail PC Game, and the reason is very simple,
In a online delivery system there is no actual physical medium
sold, so how can you prove you bought the game? The is no way
so it is understandable a product activation system be present
in a online delivery system, but when you buy a Retail PC Game
you have the actual MANUFACTURER medium and that is the proof
you bought the game, so no way will I ever accept having to
"ask for permission" to use a Retail PC Game I just bought.
I simply won't accept product activation and need for internet
access to install and play a single-player Retail PC Game which
is exactly what Steam is doing when used in Retail.

- Steam and Retail are totally different
So basically Steam in Retail is doing more damage than good.
Steam in Retail is making PC Game titles have product activation
and need for internet access to install and play a single player
game.
But this only happens in Retail cause obviously as a online
delivery system Steam needs to have internet access and to have
some kind of product activation...
But Why Valve insists in using Retail... Why?
Why doesn't Valve only use its online delivery system? Why does
it need to use Retail?
If Steam is so important why then all major PC Game titles
from Valve are being also sold in Retail?
If Steam is so important why Sin Episodes will be sold in Retail?
There is alot of hypocrisy cause Valve knows very well they
need Retail to sell their games.
One thing would be Valve only selling their games via Steam,
but they can't cause the PC Game market is mainly Retail so
they use Retail to spread and promote Steam which is wrong.
Retail is a totally different market from online delivery.
Valve is using online delivery mechanisms and apply them to
Retail which is wrong.
Product Activation belongs to online delivery not to Retail!
Net access to install and play a single player game belongs
to online delivery not to Retail!
Retail and Steam are totally different so they need to have
totally different approaches.
Putting Steam inside a Retail game is wrong cause:
1. It makes Retail PC Games have product activation
2. It makes Retail PC Games for single-player need internet
access to install and play
Steam in Retail is damaging to the Retail customers.
If Steam is so important then don't sell games in Retail!
If Steam is so important then don't sell Sin Episodes in Retail

- Savings in Manufacturing costs are not being passed on to us
It is true with steam online delivery system they don't need
to manufacture the actual physical medium, but is Valve then
selling PC Games cheaper? No they aren't. Did Valve transfer
to PC Gamers those savings? No they aren't. Valve is simply
getting a bigger margin profit from it. And will any consumer
support and agree with companies having bigger margin profits?
are you a Valve share holder to defend bigger margin profits
for them?

- The Retail middleman is good for the PC Game Market
What do you mean about the nasty middleman? Retailers? When
its in Retail we get the best prices for PC Games? so those
that give us the cheaper prices are the bad guys?
Please explain to me why Half-Life 2 sold via steam online
delivery costs 39.99 when all the other FPS for the PC also
released in 2004 cost 19.99 or less in Retail?
Far Cry, DOOM 3, Painkiller, Tribes Vengeance, Riddick are
all selling for less than 19.99 in Retail so why Half-Life 2
via Steam is selling for 39.99?
We are talking about a 20 dollar difference from steam online
delivery to Retail when you know in steam you don't even need
to manufacture the actual physical medium.
So Retail is the bad buy? No! Retail is the good guy!
Retail is the good guy in all this and I will tell you why,
cause it is Retail that promotes and defends competition and
by doing so gives you get the best prices.
Retailers compete between them to get the most costumers and
by doing so prices will go down and that is why no system can
beat Retail cause with competition prices will go down. At
the other hand a system like steam that tries to create a
monopoly and doesn't have competition will keep prices up.
Steam is the bad buy! Steam wants monopoly and high fixed
prices.
Retail is essential to the PC Game market cause it protects
competition, availability, choice and alternative.

- Deus Ex sequel problem was cause of being a console port
What does Deus Ex sequel have to do with online distribution,
Steam, Retail or any of what we are talking about?
Deus Ex sequel is a typical case of the PC suffering from a
bad console port.
Games made for consoles and then ported to the PC usually
end up being bad cause the PC and consoles are different and
what is best for a console is not best for the PC.
Why didn't they made Deus Ex sequel for the PC and then port
it to consoles? Simply cause consoles are selling more due
to Microsoft abandoning the PC as a gaming platform.
What would you expect from the maker of the PC operating
system abandoning their own platform?
With consoles Microsoft get money from every single unit sold
cause each console title has a licensing fee that has to be
payed to Microsoft and PC Games don't, so they simply
abandoned PC Games...
Microsoft has been massively advertising their own console,
so many PC Gamers have left the PC and choose consoles.
The number of PC Gamers have been declining cause of this
so obviously the sales of PC Games have also been declining
Deus Ex was made for console cause of that, cause console
titles sell more... it was a economic decision.
Deus Ex sequel for the PC being a console port and being a
failure has nothing to do with Retail or anything but rather
Microsoft abandoning the PC as a gaming platform. So blame
it on Microsoft.

- HL2 delay was Valve's fault
HL2 delay was cause of the fight they had with Vivendi and
nothing else.
I totally understand Developers should and must have a fair
cut of the profits but that is why people negotiate.
Developers must be strong and negotiate good deals with the
publisher, but that wasn't the issue between Vivendi and
Valve.
How can anyone conceive Valve daring make Vivendi sell a
PC Game with a system that is intended to kill them? It is
simply insane.
Steam presence is retail is to eventually kill Retail and
make online delivery the dominating system with traditional
Publishers like Vivendi obsolete so how could Vivendi let
Steam be included in their own game when its presence is to
damage them?
In my opinion Valve acted in a clear malevolent way.
It is unbelievable how could Valve get away with this and
the Retail HL2 was sold with steam inside.

- Valve also wants to become the Publisher
And the Publishers issue is very important, so Valve gets
rid of the publisher and defends what is good is developers
not having publishers... but what about Sin? will Ritual
be their own publisher? or will Valve be the publisher?
So basically for them they don't want publishers but they
still want to be other ones publishers?
Valve is too good to have a publisher but wants to become
a publisher for other developers? is that it?
Who will be Sin's Episode Publisher? Who? Valve?
And the issue is even more serious cause Valve is replacing
everyone and becoming everything themselves.
They are replacing the Publisher, the distributors and also
the Retailer.
Steam is creating Valve as a almighty allpowerful monopolistic
entity in the PC Game Market and that no matter what will
always be bad!

ertertwert
01-21-2006, 06:56 AM
No offense, "sayNo2steam," but I am not going to waste my time reading that. You get an A for effort, though...

PanicAttack
01-21-2006, 08:35 AM
If sayno2steam put the effort he does in writing anti-Steam posts into something of value (i.e. something beneficial to society), he might get significantly more respect. The issue of Steam has been dealt with; you either like it or not. I love it. Boxes do nothing for me anymore.

It also occured to me that his rants, although having some merit, are merely rants and nothing more. People have accepted Steam, otherwise HL2 and CSS/DoD:S (along with everything else on Steam) wouldn't have survived. It's a good think he can't actually bring down Valve with his hate - I wanna play Aftermath/HL3! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

T0ssu
01-21-2006, 10:03 AM
There's nothing bad in steam but i prefer buying retail game right now cuz I dont have Credictcard :P

JezzyBall
01-21-2006, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by sayNO2steam:
Blahbalabba bubla blabba lablaaa buh blah....



Yawn. Is he here again?

BrushBaron
01-21-2006, 02:53 PM
Go back to bed Jezzy, /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

ertertwert
01-21-2006, 05:00 PM
Valve also wants to become the Publisher
And the Publishers issue is very important, so Valve gets
rid of the publisher and defends what is good is developers
not having publishers... but what about Sin? will Ritual
be their own publisher? or will Valve be the publisher?
So basically for them they don't want publishers but they
still want to be other ones publishers?
Valve is too good to have a publisher but wants to become
a publisher for other developers? is that it?
Who will be Sin's Episode Publisher? Who? Valve?
And the issue is even more serious cause Valve is replacing
everyone and becoming everything themselves.
They are replacing the Publisher, the distributors and also
the Retailer.
Steam is creating Valve as a almighty allpowerful monopolistic
entity in the PC Game Market and that no matter what will
always be bad!



I'll just comment on this. It was the last paragraph of your novel so I couldn't avoid reading it. Anyway, Valve is in fact the publisher, but not in the way they have been done for retail boxed products. I'm under the impression that all that means is that other developers can distrubute their game on Steam while giving Valve some of the share in profits. Nothing more. Valve cannot force Ritual to release a game premature. Valve cannot take away creative control. It's a win-win situation. New developers (or veterans such as Ritual) can release their games over Steam while giving half or so of the profits to Valve. Keep in mind with the old model of retail publishers, the devs would barely get 20%.

Blueshade
01-21-2006, 09:14 PM
posted by ertertwert: ''Valve cannot force Ritual to release a game premature. Valve cannot take away creative control. It's a win-win situation.''

Yup - theres the winning line as far as Im concerned.

sayNO2steam
01-22-2006, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by ertertwert:

Anyway, Valve is in fact the publisher

such as Ritual) can release their games over Steam while giving half or so of the profits to Valve.




What is happening is really so sad and damaging
I can't even believe this is all happening... I can't...

So Valve becomes the publisher and gets 50% of the profits
Fifty percent!? Half the profits!?

And Valve will also be the publisher for the Retail version?
The Retail version?
I don't know if I can handle this news...
Oh man... It's simply too bad to be true

For now on no one in this forum can even dare to justify or
defend Steam by saying it is a model good for developers,
cause they "sell" directly to the consumer, or is a system
that was made for the good of players.
That is hypocrisy! Steam is a model that simply replaces a
middle man with another. And what is even more damaging is
Steam basically creates a monopoly, giving all the money to
a single entity...
If all this is true Sin Episodes will even be more damaging
to PC Games than what Half-Life 2 was cause back then their
were releasing their own game and you could say they can
do whatever they want with their own product but now they
are doing the same with someone else product...

I really feel Ritual by doing this is betraying me and a
very big number of PC Gamers...
You call Ritual a veteran Developer... I call Ritual a mere
PUPPET in Valve's hands and that really breaks my heart.
I'm truly sad and even shocked will all this.

ertertwert
01-22-2006, 05:58 AM
Adios then...

And I believe I mentioned that Ritual ALSO get's 50% of the profits or so. This is much higher than they would get if they were being published by EA...

And trust me, Ritual is no puppet here - they wouldn't release their game over Steam if they weren't happy with doing it.

PanicAttack
01-22-2006, 06:54 AM
This damn troll acts as if PC gaming is the most important thing in his life - it "breaks his heart" to see what's going on. Methinks he just has a vendetta because he works at an opposing company or something. He's also appeared on several Usenet newsgroups as well, which makes him a very widespread toll. Why he can't just grow up and be reasonable is beyond me. Impossible to satisfy.

JAM
01-22-2006, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by sayNO2steam:

Originally posted by ertertwert:

Anyway, Valve is in fact the publisher

such as Ritual) can release their games over Steam while giving half or so of the profits to Valve.




What is happening is really so sad and damaging
I can't even believe this is all happening... I can't...

So Valve becomes the publisher and gets 50% of the profits
Fifty percent!? Half the profits!?

And Valve will also be the publisher for the Retail version?
The Retail version?
I don't know if I can handle this news...
Oh man... It's simply too bad to be true

For now on no one in this forum can even dare to justify or
defend Steam by saying it is a model good for developers,
cause they "sell" directly to the consumer, or is a system
that was made for the good of players.
That is hypocrisy! Steam is a model that simply replaces a
middle man with another. And what is even more damaging is
Steam basically creates a monopoly, giving all the money to
a single entity...
If all this is true Sin Episodes will even be more damaging
to PC Games than what Half-Life 2 was cause back then their
were releasing their own game and you could say they can
do whatever they want with their own product but now they
are doing the same with someone else product...

I really feel Ritual by doing this is betraying me and a
very big number of PC Gamers...
You call Ritual a veteran Developer... I call Ritual a mere
PUPPET in Valve's hands and that really breaks my heart.
I'm truly sad and even shocked will all this.



What the HELL are you talking about?

Xenogenetic
01-22-2006, 01:30 PM
Just ignore him, he is like all those anti-bush people who make up shit and try to get other people to believe it. He doesn't like Valve and he doesn't like the fact Ritual is doing business with them so just ignore all of his posts.

PanicAttack
01-23-2006, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by Xenogenetic:
he is like all those anti-bush people who make up shit and try to get other people to believe it.


*raises eyebow*

Not sure you want things to get political, but you may be opening yourself to a flamewar if you group people who are anti-bush with idiot trolls like sayno2steam. People are allowed to be anti-bush if they want. Fans of bush can be just as annoying as well.

T0ssu
01-23-2006, 01:03 PM
this is RITUALISTIC!!! RITUAL FAN FORUM!! so don't talk about politics or George W Bush talk about games made by RITUAL.
BASTA*** /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Xenogenetic
01-23-2006, 04:14 PM
When I said anti-Bush I mean people who relate him to Hitler, but T0ssu is right, this is Ritual game talk not "me proving everyone's political views wrong single-handedly" talk.

hahnchen
01-23-2006, 05:56 PM
SayNO2steam is a literal retard. Instead of just generating your own arguments based on "what ifs" and outright lies, why don't you read some of mine.

The middleman is cut out, savings are passed on
How much did Half-Life 2 cost when it was released? $40 via Steam, cheaper than the vast bulk of new releases. At the time, Half-Life 2 silver cost $60, which in the UK for me was just over £35. For the same price as a new packaged game, I also got a whole bunch of other stuff. You claim that Valve is scamming everyone by taking a larger cut themselves, I'm sure they are taking a larger cut before, but it's not like they've taken 100% of the benefits, they're passed on in the price of games as mentioned. Half-Life:Aftermath is being touted as a sub $20 expansion pack, and expansion pack in the UK retail would cost £20 at least, a significant difference.

Valve wants to become a publisher
Maybe they do, but right now they aren't, and they haven't published any games. They are the DISTRIBUTOR, all they do is deliver the games for us. A publisher invests money into gaming companies and expect a nice chunk of the profit. Publishers will always exist because they will have the access to big budget licenses and if a new developer wants to do something big, they're going to need publisher backing. So far, Valve has expressed no interest in doing this. Your diatribe on "who's going to be the publisher" makes you look like you have no idea about the gaming industry at all, you barely seem to grasp the idea of what a publisher is.

Product Activation in Retail games is bad
I am totally against DRM in music, because it limits what I can do with it. It's not unreasonable to rip a CD or to copy it, it should not be disabled. With computer games, it's different. With an online delivery system, you should not need to make backups, because all the software is tied to your account. And if the retail product wasn't tied to Steam, then the flood of pirate products would be a lot greater for Steam games than it is now. That's a fact. Saying that just because you bought a game from retail and have the physical product means you have "proof" you have bought the game is irrelevent. How does the computer you install on know that it's the real thing? It doesn't, and that's why there's product activation.

Using the Retail channel to push Steam is wrong
If this were true, if Steam's sole purpose was to crush retail then stores would not stock it. They're not that retarded you know. Apple Macs have switched to Intel, I'm sure it won't be long until people hack it to get Windows to work for it, but you won't see copies of Windows being sold in Apple stores will you. And using retail to push for online distribution is so obviously the correct step to take for Valve if they want to see their online distribution succeed. In Britain, they're getting rid of analogue TV, and they're constantly pushing digital. There aren't enough good programs to fill the bloody analogue spectrum, so what's the point in digital?! Because digital technology offers a lot more than just more channels, and that's why the BBC are putting adverts for digital television in their "gasp" analogue programming. And if the publishers really thought that Steam was trying to kill them as well, why have EA stepped into become a distributor for the retail channel? EA aren't games people, they're business people.

The Half-Life 2 delay is irrelevent
The delay in Half-Life 2 wasn't caused by their cyber cafe wranglings with Vivendi, that's a largely minor issue. It's because Valve were over enthusiastic about their schedule and a rather unfortunate source code leak.

Without online delivery like Steam, we wouldn't see episodic
Steam allows developers like ritual to get some instant positive cash flow upon a game's release, it saves developers from the delay time between going gold and having the thing on the shelves. It allows developers to get instant feedback from the game and change future episodes. This just cannot be done with the retail channel.

Steam gives smal independent developers access to a cheap new delivery system
Introversion software at the core are just 3 guys. Darwinia was released in the UK to critical acclaim a while back, but it was almost impossible to find a viable distribution channel in the States. They wanted to retain their independence from publishers and hire a company just to be a distributor, whilst maintaining their right to sell the game direct. This could not be done until they decided on using Steam, and now the states has access to Darwinia. Which major publisher do you think would have released RagDoll Kung Fu?!

Valve don't take a massive cut of profits
You and someone else mentioned that Valve will take 50% of the profits, this is a wild wild overstatement. There is no way they would take this much, or people like Introversion and the RDKF guys wouldn't have joined up.

Your comments in general
You really should get more to the point in your comments, they're normally rambling and many seem pointless. You fill up many of the paragraphs with useless phrases like "Well basically we all know steam is bad", "Yeah, so in general, steam is bad for everyone" without tying them to an actual reason.

And I would really like to know the singluar true reason which drove you to hate steam the way you do. Many people may be annoyed that their retail game requires activation, yeah the majority of those who do, just go and activate it and play on. What has made you just ignore Steam altogether? Is it because you lack a broadband connection? Is it because you don't have a credit card so can't purchase the thing online? Is it because it makes it hard for you to get a pirate copy?

The thing is, is that no one is driven to such as stance through the reasons you've mentioned. No one thinks, "OH NO! Steam is going to signal the end of publishers!! I MUST POST ON FORUMS!!!". Because though big businesses, retail and publishers, they know what they're doing, they know that online petitions and forum posts are useless, if they see this as a threat, they've got plans already. The only reason I am posting this, is because I can't stand your stupid low level or argument and proclaiming lies, rumours and ignorance as truth.

ertertwert
01-24-2006, 02:16 AM
Valve don't take a massive cut of profits
You and someone else mentioned that Valve will take 50% of the profits, this is a wild wild overstatement. There is no way they would take this much, or people like Introversion and the RDKF guys wouldn't have joined up.



It's a different figure for each individual game. It's all under the NDA, but I read that one game had it at 60% devs and 40% Valve. That's why I said "about half" in my comment.

a_nevels666
01-24-2006, 06:05 AM
Originally posted by ertertwert:


Valve don't take a massive cut of profits
You and someone else mentioned that Valve will take 50% of the profits, this is a wild wild overstatement. There is no way they would take this much, or people like Introversion and the RDKF guys wouldn't have joined up.



It's a different figure for each individual game. It's all under the NDA, but I read that one game had it at 60% devs and 40% Valve. That's why I said "about half" in my comment.



Well, in the case of Sin Episodes they're using Valve's engine as well, not just Steam, so they might have to pay more.

sayNO2steam
01-24-2006, 06:42 AM
First let me say Steam is all about politics... the politics of
consumer rights
That is probably the real big issue
Taking power away from consumers and giving more power to the
corporation
With Steam developers and publishers get more power and the
consumer become dependant and controlled

now replying to Mister "hahnchen"

The middleman is still there
In Sin sequel the middleman is still there, the only difference
is with original Sin the middleman was Activation and now the
middleman is Valve

Savings are not passed on cause prices in Steam are the same
Saving are not being passed on to customers cause prices in
Steam are the same as the package released in Retail, HL2 in
Steam costs 39.99 and in Retail costs the same so were is the
savings Valve has with not manufacturing the box and disks?
The savings go to Valve to have a bigger margin profit.

Valve is the Publisher in Sin Episodes
Valve criticized the Publishers model in the past but now they
are simply becoming the Publisher cause it will give them more
money and control.

Fighting piracy can't justify everting
Fighting piracy can't justify everything and I already said
this but I guess I have to repeat... In the holly name of the
fight against piracy I will not accept, I repeat I will not
accept product activation in a Retail PC Game. Period.
Fight against piracy has to also think about consumer rights,
and product activation is against consumer rights. If Ritual
is suffering very much from piracy they will have in me
someone that will help them fight piracy but only if they
release Sin Episodes in Retail WITHOUT PRODUCT ACTIVATION or
need for net access to install and play a single player game.

Steam is ALIEN to Retail
Steam is a distribution system that only belongs in the net
and it is totally ALIEN and foreign to the Retail market and
does not belong to the Retail market... Steam has to compete
against Retail not INFECT it like it is doing... Steam in
Retail is only using it INFECTING it so it can conquer and
beat Retail to become the dominating market for PC Games and
that is wrong... Steam has to compete against Retail in a
fair way and not by using it and INFECTING it

EA deal with Valve was a marriage made in HELL
EA deal with Valve was a marriage made in HELL cause both of
them are monopolistic and arrogant... EA looked at what Valve
did with HL2 and though, WOW we must do the same cause that is
a huge opportunity to get more money and have customers in our
hands.

Episode delivery will make us pay more for games
Episode delivery in PC Games will make us pay more for games
and how can any PC Gamer defend that unless he is either rich
or he has a financial interest with developers? Sin Episodes
will cost each 20 bucks and will have 4/5 hours gameplay when
current full version cost 40 bucks and have at least 35 hours
so it is all math... Sin Episodes will be 9 episodes, having
40 hours of total gameplay time and will cost 180 bucks!
180 dollars for a single player game with 40 hours of gameplay
this is a rise in pc game cost almost 5 times what Retail PC
Game full version cost. 5 times a rise in costs for PC Gamers!

Steam wants to make Valve the almighty GOD of indy devs
Steam wants to make Valve the almighty monopolistic GOD of
indy devs, and is it good for indy devs to have single entity
with total control over publishing and distribution and which
can ask whatever margin profits they want? Monopoly will never
be good never not even to indy devs.

Steam fanatics disrespect those that don't like Steam
I've been living for over a year now with the total disrespect
Steam fanatics like you have for anyone that does not like
Steam, you only need to go to the steampowered forum and read
the kinds of things those of your kind write, so I really does
not surprise me no matter what I say or write you will always
disrespect my freedom of not wanting to use Steam but I also
don't mind writing about why I don't use/like Steam once again

Why I don't use/like Steam
. Product Activation in a Single Player Retail Game
. Need for internet access to install and play a single player
Retail game.
. Need to register and create an account ending the anonymous
capability of buying and playing Retail PC Games.
. End of patches available in individual files for offline
updates.
. Presence of a Internet distribution system in a Retail game.
. The higher prices Steam games have compared to all others.
. No separation between the online delivery version and the
Retail version like the happens is all other PC Games.
. A system design to take freedom away from consumers and give
more power to developers and publishers.
. Valve complete arrogant way toward the customer which I never
seen before in any PC Game developer/publisher.
And I could give you many more but I guess these are enough...
oh no I bet for you it will never be enough and you will always
diminish anything anyone says criticizing Steam...
You really should do like the ones in the steampowered forum...
Any criticism anyone says about Steam they just reply "Steam is
perfect" just like a robot totally dominated by their master
Valve.

ertertwert
01-24-2006, 07:16 AM
Find a new cause... I'm sick on having to scroll down a few pages to pass your nonsense.

Riddled
01-24-2006, 08:28 AM
sayno2steam could you please refrain from starting a new line half-way
across the page just to increase the amount of space you take
up with your insessant and nonsensical ramblings? It's really
quite annoying for the rest of us. But I think that is exactly what
you are trying to achieve.


Any criticism anyone says about Steam they just reply "Steam is
perfect" just like a robot totally dominated by their master
Valve.



Steam IS perfect. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Grandpapa
01-24-2006, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Riddled:
sayno2steam could you please refrain from starting a new line half-way
across the page just to increase the amount of space you take
up with your insessant and nonsensical ramblings? It's really
quite annoying for the rest of us. But I think that is exactly what
you are trying to achieve.


Any criticism anyone says about Steam they just reply "Steam is
perfect" just like a robot totally dominated by their master
Valve.



Steam IS perfect. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif



Actually it isn't perfect, but does its job pretty fine. I for one, had difficulties to follow sayno2steam's posts, since english is not my foreign language. I can understand his rant's partially, but it would be more than good if he would just post them at smaller parts. Steam is not perfect, since it's not equal to every gamer, not everyone loves to use their credit card's online (including me). But for Sin's sake, i'm willing to do it. Ofcourse there are people who simply don't have any, and still they wish to buy it, thats where retail versions come handy. But, i agree one more thing, why they should be forced to install steam, while they only buy a retail version of singleplayer game? I think it's not fair. Well, anyway's, i have steam installed, and it hasn't hurting me, so i'll say again, it's not perfect, but i can live with it.

hahnchen
01-24-2006, 01:17 PM
sayNO2Steam

Instead of just going on about your own points in your stupid reply, why don't you actually read what I wrote

So are you just dismissing the facts that I quoted when talking about the savings being passed on? The figures I quoted, oh no, they're obviously the random musings of a spastic are they? No, games on Steam are cheaper than those in retail. That's backed up with real numbers, a game in retail is more likely to cost £39.99 in the UK, and not $39.99. Currently, on amazon, HL2:GOTY edition costs over $50, combined with the HL1 anthology, it costs over $70. Or you could get HL2 Silver on steam, for less than $60.

Valve is NOT a publisher. Yes, so valve is still a middle man, but this middle man takes a lot less of the cut, because they have little costs involved and did not INVEST into the games being developed. They're not a publisher, just some guys with a delivery method, which you have failed to acknowledge due to your massive dislike of facts.

Your points of Valve destroying publishers and retail is just absolutely stupid. I said before, EA are business people, I have next to zero respect for them. But I'm going to say this, EA aren't bloody stupid, you can't be stupid and be that successful. So if Valve really were trying to destroy EA, EA really wouldn't be selling any games with Steam in would they? Why are retailers stocking Steam games? Are they stupid too? Can they not see that Steam will destroy them? No, they obviously don't see it as a viable threat, or they already have contingencies or alternate systems which they plan to launch. EA already have their own online delivery system I think.

----

It's not like steam is perfect, I myself have doubts, I even posted them on the day of the HL2 release. But I haven't mentioned them here, because all this post was, was to show how you are totally ignorant to facts, preferring to stay in your little bubble spewing out your effluent. I want you to address the actual things I've mentioned, instead of sticking the same heading on and going on about your own point. I have actually made the effort to counter the points you've made and you've not even bothered to dignify me with any sort of satisfactory answer.

Instead of just spouting your random points, I want you to address mine. For example, are my figures wrong? Are EA selling Valve the rope in which they are to be hung?