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-   -   Oh great...now this... (http://www.ritualistic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10817)

STATIC3D 12-08-2002 11:48 PM

Oh great...now this...
Yes, I am still alive. I don't really play SiN any more, but, it still holds the place as one of my favorite all time games. And some of the best damned MP levels ever. After seeing the announcement of Ritual doing this project, I had to come out of retirement from the forum to voice some stuff...

Am I the only one that is a bit bugged by Ritual taking on a project from "the other team" (Valve...aka Half Loaf). I know the Rit guys do good work and all, but it seems as if the majority of their recent project have been for paychecks instead of from their own creativity standpoint.

Don't get me wrong, I know the guys gotta get paid and all, but still, when was the last thing to come out of Ritual that was "THEIRS"? And, when (if ever) will we seen anything like it from them again?

SiN was (and IS) one of the most original FPS games ever. And, it would have kicked HL's rear end had it not been for Activision pushin it to store shelves it the state it was in at that time.

SiN is one of those games that many ppl didn't try for one of two reasons...the reviews which mentioned the bugs ppl didn't want to deal with, and, the total hype of Half Loaf coming out (aka brainwashing). However, EVERY SINGLE person I have talked to that actually played SiN thought it was awesome.

First iD takes mod ideas from the internet and repackages them for sale (with Q3: Team Arena)...then...Infogrames/Epic/DE releases UT2003 which was so obviously rushed it's insane...now...Ritual is workin for the "other team"...the gaming world is definitely in an "interesting" state to say the least... [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]

Anywho, just needed to get that off my chest (why, I dunno, just had to voice it somewhere I guess)...8ios

Hexagon 12-09-2002 10:51 AM

Re: Oh great...now this...
It's difficult times for most developers unfortunately. We can only hope one of Ritual's new projects will do well enough for them to get enough money to fund an IP of their own.

warrior 12-09-2002 02:23 PM

Re: Oh great...now this...
Hey, I'm trying to look at the positive.

Counter-strike through Rituals eyes....can only make it better.

I definitely see it your way, but with the way things are, plus people calling for the demise of the PC Gaming Industry (which I think is ludicrous), I'll take this better than our other options.

Ritual will prove itself once again.

STATIC3D 12-09-2002 08:04 PM

Re: Oh great...now this...
I agree about the difficulty of the times for most developers. In fact, I have actually started working on an article for my website about the pros/cons (things that rock/suck) about both developers and publishers.

One quick take example on it...
Developers -
Pro - They create the games we love to play.
Con - They are usually not the best when it comes to "business" aspects.

Pro - They fund and get the games we love to play to the store shelves.
Con - They often dictate the development of projects to the point where the developers hand's are tied.

The way I see it, most development houses spend the majority of the money they get to keep the doors open while working on a project rather than being able to actually "save" enough money to then develop projects of their own. If they can't "sell" a game idea to a publisher then these types of projects only get done when ppl put their spare time (if they have any) into them.

In other words, unless you can convince someone the project will sell (or lose the funding during the development process), it's up to you to create it...something that the mod type communities have proven many times over (SiN2UT and SiN Arena ring a bell?).

Keep in mind that if the PC Gaming industry were to die (and I don't think that will happen any time soon) then the ONLY thing that would be driving the hardware technology would be video/audio types of production. If it were not for games, most ppl could do the majority of what they do on a puter (email & surf web) on MUCH less advanced hardware than what is out today. No "real" reason to upgrade if what you do can be done without the "need" for better hardware?

But I digress...
I never have been a CS fan. And, while I have liked some of Ritual's work, I don't purchase a game from a company just because I have liked some of their past work. I judge each project on it's own merits when making a purchase decision...which can be proven by my refusal to purchase UT2003 after having played UT for over 3 years.

Anywho, I just find it ironic that after so many comparisons made in the past as to how SiN was a better game (netcode alone should have been proof enuff...lol) than Half Loaf (which lead to the creation of CS...just imagine if CS had been built using SiN) Ritual is now working on a Valve project.

I know this may sound like I'm being negative. However, I am actually speaking more from personal experience (as well as that of many friends) with content creation in projects. So, I am actually being a bit more realistic than anything else...the truth just comes out a bit rough sometimes.

Good luck to Ritual and when (if) news of SiN 2 comes along, then, I'll definitely "Jones'n" [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

kanaeda 12-09-2002 11:39 PM

Re: Oh great...now this...
publisher-types really like "tie-ins" and other such marketing silly-ness; stuff like tv shows or movies or toys. these instantly increase the potential buying market, as well as providing additional marketing venues. while there's no arguement that an original ip has the potential (SiN movie anyone?), established properties have a much better chance at being profitable. whether it's for better or wose (easily argued either way), the big publishers are now publicly held companies and as such carry along the baggage of having to keep their shareholders happy, meet fiscal deadlines, etc. Rarely, if ever, their decisions are driven by the desire to make a great game. The bigger companies have, for the most part, eliminated all the smaller competition. let's face it, the current game development market really only presents the opportunities for truly original properties when the developer can fund a large portion of the development... perhaps even the whole project. I don't know of too many pc developers able to pull that off. while i agree it would be fantastic to work on unique, creative, and totally original properties and nothing but... the reality is that such a situation requires a hefty bankroll and rarely happens in todays market.

besides all that, who says we aren't excited to have this opportunity? Excited/inspired developers make for better games. I can say this much... valve certainly isn't a publisher. things could be worse.

warrior 12-10-2002 01:29 PM

Re: Oh great...now this...
Well I'm all for this project.

If counter-strike was missing anything (besides OBVIOUS GRAPHICS) it's the attitude and attention to the cool things that Ritual did with SiN.

I can't wait to see what happens.

STATIC3D 12-10-2002 07:36 PM

Re: Oh great...now this...
True Kanaeda (Akira is a great movie btw). The same often goes for the film industry. Sequals and such often get funded even if there is a real story there or not (i.e. ability for a sequal).

While SiN the movie did do well, it too WAS based upon something...the games. :} While there have been many attempts (with few real successes) several games have spawned movies (Mario Bros., Mortal Kombat...etc.). Any popular license nowadays is open for crossover potential (whether the crossover is kept true to the original product or is actually "worth" being created).

SiN had a VERY strong underground following...anyone remember the SiN 2 petition? Had it not been for the fact that SiN was pushed to store shelves too early (the blame rests solely on the shoulders of Activision), it WOULD have done better if for no other reason than the bugs that were considered "major" or "show stoppers" by some reviews would not have been there.

People that read these reviews most likely viewed the game as another "rushed" product (like so many others)...unfortunate for them (and for Ritual/SiN). In any event, excluding the bugs, comments in reviews were generally very positive.

If SiN 2 is to ever be made, and the lesson has been learned the first time not to rush the product to market, I can see it being one of the top FPS titles (where it should have been in the first place...damn Activition!). I mean it's obvious that some elements were "barrowed" from SiN for other games...Anyone play Deus Ex?...Gee, wonder where the idea for a hacker type character back at the home base radioing you info came from?

To some extent, SiN DID put it's mark on the gaming world (kind like those in the "know"...well, "know" it was a great game). I can only see that SiN 2 (if properly executed) could do nothing but succeed in a sea of other "clone" (or "popular"/"tie-in" subject) games.

Heck, even if ya'll waited to start SiN 2 until after this CS project, it's not like DNF (Duke Nukem Forever) will be ready yet...hehe.

BrushBaron 12-10-2002 08:33 PM

Re: Oh great...now this...
I want to have Blade's babies.

badman 12-10-2002 08:41 PM

Re: Oh great...now this...
Don't we all..

ninken 12-11-2002 12:20 AM

Re: Oh great...now this...
Static3D little topic also got me out of retirement from these forums! [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] You make some great points. Personally I talked to a few Ritual employees the during past E3. They love SiN, they would probably make SiN 2 for free, they love the game that much.

So far they have not produced a title that was as fun as SiN. SiN was a true original ideal which you can look back now and see how sin influences other games. So far none of their other titles have stand up to how fun and wonderful SiN was, but they also proved to everyone that they are very capable to producing all sorts of game play and different titles with out making the same game over and over. Yet I still loved Fakk2 and the Blair witch volume3, which they produced volume that is worth playing. To hear them doing Condition Zero, has me a little worried too. I think itís great for the company to do something BIG like this, sure it will sell many copies. The problem is they should be making something that is their own, even if itís not going to be SiN2. They are so much capable for doing something bigger and better than taking on titles that publishers toss at them.

Now CS I know they will pull it off, but I think this will be one of their most poorly produced titles. The reason why isÖ This is their first realistic game. Thatís the main reason why I donít like Counter Strike! Iíve played it a few times because people made such a fuss out of it. Realistic just plan sucks, Itís not really fun hiding and camping! Lets not forget about cheating too. Ritual will have to work some major overtime on anti cheating measures.

The thing is Iím all for fun, humor, unrealistic weapons, crazy powerups, and power movements. I donít think anyone going to find any Easter eggs in Condition Zero.
Thatís just me, of course people love that type of game, but I rather see them add some fun factors added into it, and take away the time that it takes to play a round.

Metal of Honor did a great job of just adding some fun to the game. With some of those guys now level designing at ritual Maybe they can make Condition Zero a little fun too. My suggestion to ritual for being a long term fan would, to be try to do something original and something that is their own game title. Besides they should have plenty of funds to do something like that after Condition Zero and EF2. Personally Iíll buy EF2!


Project leader of
Sin2ut Ė SinArena and the guy who started the petition for SiN2


Mike Porter 12-11-2002 10:39 AM

Re: Oh great...now this...
Hey Reid,

How's it going cheif!!.. I am coming up to Mass. at the end of the month. My sis lives up there... Since we don't get snow down here I have to go where it snows....

Anyway.. Nice seeing ya again...

May we never have to work on a BW3 again.

BrushBaron 12-11-2002 10:45 AM

Re: Oh great...now this...
Awesome! I just went Ghetto Sledding last weekend.

Flattened card board box + garbage bag = Ghetto Sledding. Much fun!

"SourceSafe will be the death of us all Mr.Prye!!"

LeftE 12-11-2002 11:05 AM

Re: Oh great...now this...
...Don't forget about the level where the terrorists have gotten hold of a shrink ray and you're 3 inches tall, bouncing off the couches while sniping with the AWP! erm, wait.. *cough* [img]/forums/images/icons/ooo.gif[/img]

badman 12-11-2002 11:15 AM

Re: Oh great...now this...
haha. ...no to mention the one with the platforms suspended in space! And the one by that weird guy where people run on the walls and ceiling!

JezzyBall 12-11-2002 12:19 PM

Re: Oh great...now this...
Let me make it plain & simple for you...

<font color="green">It's ALL about the Benjamins</font color>

Korrupt 12-11-2002 12:50 PM

Re: Oh great...now this...
"haha. ...no to mention the one with the platforms suspended in space! And the one by that weird guy where people run on the walls and ceiling!"

badman, Somehow I don't think a cs_italy_dig level is going to be a big seller. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

warrior 12-11-2002 02:34 PM

Re: Oh great...now this...
Well you don't know until you try [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

badman 12-11-2002 04:02 PM

Re: Oh great...now this...
ctf_dig was way ahead of its time. I wonder why it didn't catch on, while paradox (the map, not the guy) did.

warrior 12-11-2002 04:04 PM

Re: Oh great...now this...
Don't know. That's like Spry, it's been ported to Halflife and Unreal.

Spry rocked. I think a little level imagination is what is need for CS. They need NEW environments BIG TIME!

Korrupt 12-11-2002 07:06 PM

Re: Oh great...now this...
I disagree about CS needing new environments, but they do need more locales. (this could be what you meant warrior). I don't want to play CS on a map like UT's "Facing Worlds" for example.

Part of what attracts me to CS is its realistic settings (italy, dust, etc) and weapons (ak47, colt, etc). What I'd hate to see happen to CS is to lose it's "fun factor". There are tons of "realistic simulators" out there like Ghost Recon. CS is fun becuase it has real weapons and arcade type player movement. I've long grown tired of goo-guns and ray blasters. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

STATIC3D 12-11-2002 08:40 PM

Re: Oh great...now this...
Kul to see so many ppl still keep up with this forum (even if it's just lurkin...lol). I agree with a lot of what ninken had to say about some of the games. In most cases, while they were "good" games, they just didn't seem to have that love (i.e. heart and soul) behind them to make them "great" titles.

I never liked the CS stuff for the "lack" of realism...stick with me here. If I want "realism" in a FPS, I will go with something more like Rogue Spear/Ghost Recon. In those types of games it's the attention to "realistic" detail that makes them more a combat "sim" than a "scream and twitch" style of FPS.

However, I also really like those over the top types of weapons and such in "scream and twitch" FPS games. The only problem I usually see in those types of games is the lack of weapon balance. With so many different types of weapons (slug throwers, energy based, etc.) the idea of how one is more powerful than another is the main issue/problem.

The main thing with CS that always bugged me was the weapon loadout stuff. Either go into battle fully loaded with both teams equally balanced (allowing the best "tactics" to win out), OR, give both teams equal opportunities to obtain the weapons (again allowing the better "team" to win).

The game that comes the closest to being somewhat a decent hybrid of "realistism" while still offering that over the top style of "fun" has been Battlefield 1942. Too bad they nerfed the net code on it. Just imagine if this style of gameplay (drive, fly, run &amp; gun) could be incorporated into a good quality "scream and twitch"/"over the top weaponry" style FPS....hmmm...(with good netcode of course) hehe.

warrior 12-12-2002 10:48 AM

Re: Oh great...now this...
Yeah, new locales is more of what I was meaning.

It's a good game, I just think that with the modern world (unfortunately) terrorism can occur anywhere, and the game should reflect that.

Korrupt 12-12-2002 12:47 PM

Re: Oh great...now this...
Agreed, but I think the main limiting factor in that respect has been the HL engine, it just can't handle big, diverse environments. When the first PR about CS:CZ came out it was purported to be running on a "modified version of the HL engine". Now that it's in Ritual's hands, I'm wonder if that will change. Anyone know?

warrior 12-12-2002 01:04 PM

Re: Oh great...now this...
Well if there is any merit to the story that Valve is calling for a May 2003 release, that would suggest to me that they are not redoing everything in a new engine.

STATIC3D 12-14-2002 06:20 PM

Re: Oh great...now this...
Oh yeah, one last thing I remembered and wanted to pass along to the Ritual guyz. Be sure to dot all your "i's" and cross all your "t's" with Valve.

Don't forget they are the same group that yanked the rug out from under Rogue Entertainment (American McGee's company) on producing addon(s)...

Worst part for Rogue was this happened right after EA had done essentially the same thing to them following the release of Alice...just one reason I refuse to purchase EA games any more, EA's history of this type of thing is NOTORIOUS! Hmmm...wasn't it 2015 that did MOH:AA for EA?...nuff said.

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