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escapedturkey 09-14-2003 06:33 AM

Novalogic - Nice Game Engines - Bad Online Games
 
I'll give you four reasons why:

1. Lack of a dedicated linux server.

2. Lack of decent remote administration (i.e. Quake 3 rcon style).

3. Lack of PunkBuster.

4. Lack of support for ASE and GSA/GS3D.

Can Ritual fix these issues? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Riley_Pizt 09-14-2003 08:37 AM

I think Novalogic has good online games.
 
Quote:


1. Lack of a dedicated linux server.


It's a detraction but there are still plenty of servers available to play on.

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3. Lack of PunkBuster.


PunkBuster causes more problems than it solves at least for users with the added bandwidth used and CPU cycles and the constant updates. Something is always causing problems and breaking Punkbuster. I have seen PunkBuster be patched three and four times in the same day.

The fact is server admins could get the ban control and few additional commands they need without the added Punkbuster client crap. I will never play on any server that requires Punkbuster. I would rather tolerate the occasional cheat because at least he does not hurt my own ability to play the game.

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4. Lack of support for ASE and GSA/GS3D.


With Novalogic's in-game browser and external web interface, you can already see servers inside and outside the game.
I don't miss the external server browser support since I use IE to see them.

escapedturkey 09-14-2003 12:40 PM

Re: I think Novalogic has good online games.
 
PunkBuster is fantastic and the fact they auto-update it constantly shows they support and fix it - their support team is very responsive. Unlike Novalogic who often ignore titles completely (for Comanche 4 it required a third party anti-cheat program!). PunkBuster runs extremely smooth on all the games it currently supports. If you read in all the communities where it gets implemented, it gets praises for stopping cheaters (America's Army, Enemy Territory, Raven Shield, Soldier of Fortune 2, Quake 3, just to name a few). In fact, a lot of the players of those communities were ready to quit their games until PB became a part of them. There are not just a few cheats in games, there are tons and it's amazing how many, only a dedicated and contracted anti-cheat/administration program like PunkBuster can stop the vast majority of them. All of the inititial problems, upon release have been fixed and it doesn't take up hardly much extra CPU or bandwidth anymore, this is why the majority of game servers that have PunkBuster as an option, use it. In fact, if you look at the stats in ASE (because most games are made to support browsers like ASE - you'll see that any game that has PunkBuster, the majority of players will play on the PunkBuster enabled servers). PB also has tons of features like Player Power, screenshots, web admin, server tasking, cvar checks, name protection and prevention, and the list goes on.

As for occasional cheats?

http://www.escapedturkey.com/forum/p...opic.php?t=374

That's just a little bit from my two small servers. Many other larger servers have 100s of cheaters caught. In fact, if you go to www.punksbusted.com .. they share GUID's to ban cheaters on a more global level - something only PunkBuster can offer. That kinda shows you that there far more cheats than you can imagine going on in games where there is no anti-cheat software. The vast majority of gamers prefer PunkBuster in a game.

While we're discussing issues. There are no dedicated servers for BHD - you have to buy the game, put in a cd and run it from menus - what a complete mess. Go to www.teamwarfare.com and the post counts and messages for BHD are far lower than other games like Enemy Territory - which has dedicated Windows and Linux servers, accessible via ASE/GS and has PunkBuster. You'll also notice, that in all TWL rules for each game, that has PB included, they endorse it, and most players show they enjoy the protection.

The lack of ASE and GS support really hurt the potential for growth of Novalogic games. It makes it a pain to find and search for servers, buddies, etc. It's just a major mistake for them to avoid external browser access.

Unless Novalogic wakes up and gets a clue about all these issues - things that most decent online games cover in one way shape or form, they'll always have a very minimal community with a high level of disgruntled customer base. Simply checking all the NL games community sites, and the level of frustration with NL's extremely poor support for prior games is very high.

I've said my piece.

FarleyDog88 09-14-2003 07:59 PM

Re: I think Novalogic has good online games.
 
I serously doubt that something this major will be implemented into an expansion pack. Its just too much for for an expansion, it would be great, but than again, doubt it.

Riley_Pizt 09-14-2003 09:12 PM

You got it wrong.
 
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the fact they auto-update it constantly shows they support and fix it

It also shows how bad an implementation it is when it requires that many changes. That's like saying Microsoft has such good quality software and security because they have so many fixes for it. The fact is good software doesn't need that many fixes.

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PunkBuster runs extremely smooth on all the games it currently supports.

Again that may be YOUR experience on YOUR PC. It is not mine.

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If you read in all the communities where it gets implemented, it gets praises for stopping cheaters

Fanatics who despise cheating to the level that they do are ready to embrace anything which they think will stop it regardless of the drawbacks. I don't let the opinions of irrational teenagers determine whether something is a good idea.

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In fact, a lot of the players of those communities were ready to quit their games until PB became a part of them.

No, they wouldn't quit because it is that blind fanaticism to the game that is why they complain so vociferously about cheating to start with. They'd continue to complain, but they would not quit playing.

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There are not just a few cheats in games, there are tons

Again that is pure speculation. The definition of cheating varies widely. Just because Punkbuster considers something as cheating does not make it actually so. And, just because Punkbuster happens to flag a user as cheating does not mean that he actually was.

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it doesn't take up hardly much extra CPU or bandwidth anymore

Sure it does! As a matter of fact, the more types of cheating it tries to monitor, the more intensive it becomes. It's like virus protection. The database always grows NOT shrinks and therefore scans take longer to download and run.

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this is why the majority of game servers that have PunkBuster as an option, use it.

The reason servers use it is because it offers a GUID ban. That could be offered WITHOUT the client-side crap.

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screenshots, web admin, server tasking, cvar checks,
name protection and prevention

These features could be server-side only and built into games.

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Many other larger servers have 100s of cheaters caught.

And how many of these banned GUID's actually belong to players who did not cheat? The fact is you do not know because it is a subjective ruling.

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In fact, if you go to www.punksbusted.com .. they share GUID's to ban cheaters on a more global level

Which makes it even worse because you are trusting someone else's judgement to deny someone access to your server. Blacklisting like this has no place in civilized society including in online gaming.

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That kinda shows you that there far more cheats than you can imagine going on in games where there is no anti-cheat software.

What it really shows is that rashly discriminatory attitudes and tactics are rampant in online gaming. Trying to oreventing someone from ever playing a game online (which if you got your way would happen) for which they paid good money is unjust even if that person did engage in cheating on occasion. Playing games over the net is already an unfair and rigged contest due to differences in PC and Internet speed regardless of cheating. Having a global blacklist based on someone's arbitrary and subjective decision without a proper judicial system is grossly unfair. Also, the punishment must fit the crime even if such a judicial system existed.

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the post counts and messages for BHD are far lower than other games like Enemy Territory

LOL! That is simply because Enemy Territory is free.

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The lack of ASE and GS support really hurt the potential for growth of Novalogic games.

No it doesn't. Sales always dictate all, and the overwhelming majority of people don't buy a game based upon whether it supports GameSpy or ASE. They buy it based on the game itself. There are also plenty of people who hate GameSpy and ASE. External server browser support will never make or break a game.

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It makes it a pain to find and search for servers, buddies, etc.

Novalogic servers are easy to find on their website or in the game. A buddy list could be built into the game, but you can still see player's names in the list inside and outside of the game.

Morbus 09-14-2003 11:09 PM

Re: Novalogic - Nice Game Engines - Bad Online Games
 
Nova has the "Best" on line games. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Cheaters? I've only seen a few since 1999, but witnessed an ungodly number of people accusing others of doing so. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]
Ritual looks like a quality company. Hope they produce a killer add-on.

escapedturkey 09-15-2003 12:09 AM

Re: Novalogic - Nice Game Engines - Bad Online Games
 
The amount of disinformation and over assuming opinion here is staggering.

Terrynator 09-15-2003 03:03 AM

Re: You got it wrong.
 
Quote:

It also shows how bad an implementation it is when it requires that many changes. That's like saying Microsoft has such good quality software and security because they have so many fixes for it. The fact is good software doesn't need that many fixes.

It doesn't require many changes. But it can fix itself if required. Far superior method to non dynamic patches that only release twice a year. Even then patches tend to require emergancy patches or introduce new bugs that won't get addressed for months. Let's stick with apples and apples here.I have trouble with some games right out of the box...Does that mean all games suck because I had a problem.
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Again that may be YOUR experience on YOUR PC. It is not mine.

But you are trying to intimate that your experience represents the majority instead of a very small minority. That happens to be fact as compaired to what your statement is trying to imply.
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Fanatics who despise cheating to the level that they do are ready to embrace anything which they think will stop it regardless of the drawbacks. I don't let the opinions of irrational teenagers determine whether something is a good idea.

Ok...sure.. and don't let the statments of a fanatic diswade anyone looking at the technology. Common Riley_Pizt....every statement you have made so far is way over the top. So who is the fanatic here? I'm beginning to see a pattern forming.
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No, they wouldn't quit because it is that blind fanaticism to the game that is why they complain so vociferously about cheating to start with. They'd continue to complain, but they would not quit playing.

You will say just about anything. The revitalization of say Q3 has been demonstrated. Now that's a fact. You obviously don't watch that the numbers have stabilized and the servers available have actually risen slightly. 2888 servers (gamespy stats page). The servers are up from a low of around 2000 just a short six months ago. Fanatic server admins??? ho'kay.
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Again that is pure speculation. The definition of cheating varies widely. Just because Punkbuster considers something as cheating does not make it actually so. And, just because Punkbuster happens to flag a user as cheating does not mean that he actually was.

What a load of nonsense. Now talk about speculating. So you actually know that as fact? I suppose the screen shots taken to go with a lot of confirmed cheaters caught by pb are just misunderstood? Where you going with this one. Is false detection what you are reaching for with this?. I'll fill you in. In the rare and I mean rare event of a false detection occurred it is posted publically within hours of first reports. There are people running servers out there that do check this stuff. Then within hours this particular detection is disabled via PB update. (99% of False detections are the result of third party software running in the background of the client while playing). False detection situations are so rare that most people don't even know it even happens out there False detections have only occurred after an update. Most people don't even know that it can even occurr as they are never exposed to it even being talked about. It's a non event or rare event Riley_Pizt. If you are talking about the normal everyday accuracy causing a false detection. I've never heard of a reported case. The detection software is not guessing. It's a machine looking for very specific things in memory or in registers etc. They are there or not. So in practice in the real world it's not a big deal. Let's not get off on theory of what's possible... Of course it's posible but then it's just splitting hairs.
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Sure it does! As a matter of fact, the more types of cheating it tries to monitor, the more intensive it becomes. It's like virus protection. The database always grows NOT shrinks and therefore scans take longer to download and run.

That is just pure bull. You obviously do not know how PB works and the limitations it puts on itself that are hardcoded to not exceed a number of cpu cycles etc.. 'scans take longer to download and run' What are you talking about.? Again you obviously don't know much about the structure of PB. It's doesn't scan like you see virus software. That is your assumption. It's significantly less aggressive than that. Similar..a little but it's like comparing a horse to a cat. They both have 4 legs but are not the same thing at all.
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The reason servers use it is because it offers a GUID ban. That could be offered WITHOUT the client-side crap. (second quote)These features could be server-side only and built into games.

You can't generate a secure guid unless it is also client side. PB is built into the game...so what does that mean. Oh you mean because pb has it's own directory you think it is not built in. Ahhh... let me explain. The only reason the structure is that way is because it's optional to run and it's not practical to recompile the main game binaries for each update. The PB software is integrated into the game. Even if you don't install it there is a substantial portion of code in the game binaries you don't see. PB couldn't work like it does if it wasn't part of the game binaries. It's why it is not sold seperately and game companies have to allow PB access to the game source. PB takes the load off of game companies from having to write and maintain their own security software. Why re-invent the wheel so to speak.
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And how many of these banned GUID's actually belong to players who did not cheat? The fact is you do not know because it is a subjective ruling.

Now you are really stretching it here. I challenge you to go out and find players that PB has recorded that didn't use a hack. Let me explain the facts of life to you for the subjective part.. that means screenshots and demo's Admins always used demos to ban cheaters PB doesn't change that in any way.. Even if a pb screenshot is used to determine cheating it is usually very easy to interperate. You must remeber.. The servers you play on don't belong to you and you are a guest. That really is the bottom line. If I just don't like your style of play you could be gone. That's just the reality of playing online. PB actually reduces the number of judgments I am required to make by detecting the most common cheats with 100% accuracy. It reduces the workload so to speak. The rest of the cheats must as always be checked manually via demos, spec'ing etc. It does though allow admins more time to just admin the servers better. Gee maybe admins will actually make fewer mistakes this way. What a thought. No not a thought... it's actually happening. Few false kicks for cheating. All admins will verify that.
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Which makes it even worse because you are trusting someone else's judgement to deny someone access to your server. Blacklisting like this has no place in civilized society including in online gaming.

HaHa... civilized society. We wouldn't have cheating or obnoxious behavior if people were civilized. And again..I can deny anybody.. It's my server and I can choose any method I like to protect it. Why do you have such a problem with that concept. There is no entitlement. The player is not in control... it's the admin/owner.
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What it really shows is that rashly discriminatory attitudes and tactics are rampant in online gaming. Trying to oreventing someone from ever playing a game online (which if you got your way would happen) for which they paid good money is unjust even if that person did engage in cheating on occasion. Playing games over the net is already an unfair and rigged contest due to differences in PC and Internet speed regardless of cheating. Having a global blacklist based on someone's arbitrary and subjective decision without a proper judicial system is grossly unfair. Also, the punishment must fit the crime even if such a judicial system existed.

Here you go again. You keep going on about entitlement fairness. But again you assume access to the server. Well that is the point isn't it. My server, not the players server. No shoes, no shirt, no service. Sound familiar.
'Judicial system'??? Nobody is going to jail here. Look.. please don't give me the school yard lawyer bit. Another piece of reallity for you.. When you buy a game check it out. There isn't any promise you can play online with it. Game companies can't promise something they don't control. They don't own the servers.
The rest of your quote is just babble... sounds nice and altruistic but babble just the same.
Before PB, all kick and bans were subjective... now fewer are. That's an improvement.

Here is the thing in all this. It's not about PB. It's about the change in the market. Admins are demanding security tools. Players want cheaters out. Game companies find it expensive to constantly release security patches to quell the complaints from their paying customers. Online security software is becoming more previlent not less. If you want to play online for free then the people that run those servers want tools like PB. The choice is pay-to-play servers and if you don't think there won't be security software against cheating on those you are dreaming. Lot's of examples already on pay servers of this.
Help protect all the good public servers out there.Support your neighbourhood admin and support dynamic PB type security before you plonk down money for a game.
Afteral making the playing field as even as possible helps you get your moneys worth..




Terrynator 09-15-2003 10:33 AM

Re: You got it wrong.
 
Whoa... was I tired lastnight... sorry about the spelling and grammar mistakes. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

enfestid 09-15-2003 08:11 PM

Re: Novalogic - Nice Game Engines - Bad Online Games
 
I was gonna say bad offline games...

escapedturkey 09-16-2003 02:33 AM

Re: Novalogic - Nice Game Engines - Bad Online Games
 
Terrynator is directly involved in the gaming industry. He really knows what he's talking about guys. He has deep contacts in the game industry, and has literally changed the way games are protected, anti-cheat, etc.

Riley_Pizt 09-16-2003 02:42 AM

You still have it wrong.
 
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Far superior method to non dynamic patches that only release twice a year.

You missed the point. Security and reliability of dynamic patches aside, whether or not PunkBuster has dynamic patches is immaterial. The fact is PunkBuster breaks things too easily with all of the PC applications which are released and updated, and it is one more thing running when the game is all that needs to be running for best performance. Client-side cheat protection like this is not a good idea. The ends don't justify the means.

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But you are trying to intimate that your experience represents the majority instead of a very small minority.

I am not intimating that at all because it is irrelevant. The fact is even if only a small minority of players have problems with PunkBuster, that is still a group of customers who paid for the game and have the right to be able to play it without the problems.

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That happens to be fact as compaired to what your statement is trying to imply.

The fact that PunkBuster is updated so frequently shows that problems are more than with just a minority. The fact is neither one of us has actual statistics to know how many people actually have problems with PunkBuster and don't use it or switch to another game because of it. My point is even if it is just one person, that one person is important.

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every statement you have made so far is way over the top. So who is the fanatic here?

Only from the perspective of a fanatical supporter of PunkBuster.

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The servers are up from a low of around 2000 just a short six months ago.

PunkBuster has been implemented in Quake 3 for almost a year (since the v1.32 update). Therefore, whether or not the number of servers is up in the past six months is irrespective of PunkBuster. The fact that QuakeCon was recently held is a far more likely possibility as to why Quake 3 is a little more popular now.

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In the rare and I mean rare event of a false detection occurred it is posted publically within hours of first reports.

That is only in cases where a means of detection is false NOT a particular incident. For example, PunkBuster may detect that I am running some aimbot-type program when I am not even though the particular program that PunkBuster is checking for is in fact an actual aimbot program.

More importantly and likely, PunkBuster may be set to think that a particular CVAR I have set on my client is a cheat when I don't feel that it is. The CVAR was put in the game to be used. With PunkBuster I am branded a cheat simply because I am making use of a feature in the game which the authors of PunkBuster happen to not like.

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So in practice in the real world it's not a big deal.

It's a big deal to the person who gets banned or prevented from playing by it. And, a single person trying to get the banned removed is far more difficult than you know or will admit.

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You can't generate a secure guid unless it is also client side.

What a crock of shit! You obviously know nothing about programming or even the commonly used authentication systems. There are so many ways this could be done. The simplest would be for the secure GUID to be issued by the normal CD key authentication server and passed to the game server during the authentication process which is basically how the standard Quake 3 CD key authentication works right now. This would simply be one extra piece of data passed to the game server.

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PB is built into the game...so what does that mean.

PB is an external DLL which also runs client-side. The few useful functions I specified above could be incorporated into the main executable like the CD key authentication routines currently are and executed only in server mode, and the client could be spared running anything extra.

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it's not practical to recompile the main game binaries for each update.

When you remove the client-side crap, and just implement GUID banning and a few of the other useful features, you won't need constant updates. The client-side crap is what is causing the constant updating.

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I challenge you to go out and find players that PB has recorded that didn't use a hack.

I am sure if I advertised for players to come forward, I would find some. Actually a class action lawsuit against game companies over this is a good idea.

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The servers you play on don't belong to you and you are a guest.

Game publishers sell their multiplayer games with the promise of being able to play them online. Sure, they don't typically host many if any servers themselves, but they have both enabled this capability and created the expectation of it. Therefore, those who purchase their games are lead to believe there will be servers available and publishers have a responsibility to meet that expectation they created. If server operator uses a system included with the game to ban a user who purchased the game from their particular server, that is one thing. However, when server operators collude to ban a user from all of their servers, then the publisher has created a de facto blacklist system and is not meeting its obligation to provide the blacklisted user with the capability to play online.

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by detecting the most common cheats with 100% accuracy.

You admit PunkBuster makes mistakes and yet still maintain that it is 100% accurate. LOL!

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We wouldn't have cheating or obnoxious behavior if people were civilized.

First, cheating at a video game especially in casual online play is hardly a capital offense although fanatical gamers act like it is. Unjust accusatory and discriminatory behavior is far more inequitable and offensive. Second, I am talking about a society not individual behavior. What makes a society civilized is that it has a system of laws in place which aspires to be egalitarian and respects the rights of the accused and the minority.

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It's my server and I can choose any method I like to protect it. Why do you have such a problem with that concept.

I will repeat it since you seem to be a little slow. In a civilized society, as an individual you should have the right to discriminate in your personal affairs within reason. However, you should not have the right to collaborate with others to discriminate in a like manner as a group to deny access. Because when you do that, you effectively create a universal blacklist and an underclass made up of those who are denied.

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No shoes, no shirt, no service.

That applies to public restaurants due to health reasons. A restaurant which serves the public cannot discriminate against it for other reasons.

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'Judicial system'??? Nobody is going to jail here.

Your vocabulary is obviously lacking. A "judicial system" simply means to have a system in place where the accused can defend himself against accusation, and where no ban or other punishment is imposed until the accused is given this opportunity. A fair judicial system also incorporates an impartial magistrate to oversee this process to ensure that it is fair to the accused. Right now, if PunkBuster says a player is cheating he is immediately convicted and punished with no such guaranteed review. In addition, even if the accused is truly guilty of cheating, the punishment is a permanent and effectively universal ban given the collusion of server operators. A universal life sentence hardly fits this crime.

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Before PB, all kick and bans were subjective... now fewer are. That's an improvement


LOL! Some improvement. Without PunkBuster an individual server operator makes his own decision. Now, he lets PunkBuster do it for him. It's still subjective only now there is less review or individual responsibility since it is PunkBuster's developers and their code which makes the decision.

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Game companies can't promise something they don't control.

LOL! Game companies have complete control over the ability of their customers to play online when they implement an authentication system as exists in Quake 3. They further exercise control when they implement the potential for a universal blacklist system as PunkBuster does. Yes, they do not own all of the game servers, but they do enable play on them. Therefore, the game publishers have a responsibility to provide a place for ALL of their paying customers to play the game since they created the expectation and also control the means of doing so.

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Afteral making the playing field as even as possible helps you get your moneys worth.

Those who get banned or otherwise excluded from playing most certainly do NOT get their money's worth. They don't get to play the game for which they paid.

Riley_Pizt 09-16-2003 02:45 AM

His words will fall on their own.
 
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Terrynator is directly involved in the gaming industry. He really knows what he's talking about guys. He has deep contacts in the game industry

I let people's words speak for themselves. I am not interested in his supposed pedigree. I have a pedigree of my own. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Riley_Pizt 09-16-2003 03:19 AM

That\'s some kind of editing!
 
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sorry about the spelling and grammar mistakes. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

LOL! Well if that is the corrected version up there now, I would hate to see it when you initially posted it.

escapedturkey 09-16-2003 03:39 AM

Re: That\'s some kind of editing!
 
Riley_Pizt - now you are just trolling and being insulting.

This board only allows a person to edit messages over a certain period of time.

But go ahead and insult people and make rude remarks, it'll just ruin your side of the discussion.

escapedturkey 09-16-2003 08:21 AM

Re: You still have it wrong.
 
Quote:

The fact is PunkBuster breaks things too easily with all of the PC applications which are released and updated, and it is one more thing running when the game is all that needs to be running for best performance. Client-side cheat protection like this is not a good idea. The ends don't justify the means.

There are no current problems with PB. Explain this.

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The fact that PunkBuster is updated so frequently shows that problems are more than with just a minority.

Or it shows they care about everyone, including the minority. Why is that hard to beleive? Oh yah, Novalogic doesn't do that, they only care about the majority, if that.

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PunkBuster has been implemented in Quake 3 for almost a year (since the v1.32 update). Therefore, whether or not the number of servers is up in the past six months is irrespective of PunkBuster. The fact that QuakeCon was recently held is a far more likely possibility as to why Quake 3 is a little more popular now.

This happened before Quakecon.

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More importantly and likely, PunkBuster may be set to think that a particular CVAR I have set on my client is a cheat when I don't feel that it is. The CVAR was put in the game to be used. With PunkBuster I am branded a cheat simply because I am making use of a feature in the game which the authors of PunkBuster happen to not like.


PunkBuster doesn't check ANY cvars by default, unless told to by the developer.

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It's a big deal to the person who gets banned or prevented from playing by it. And, a single person trying to get the banned removed is far more difficult than you know or will admit.

A server admin owns the server and can ban or allow anyone he/she likes, no questions asked.

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What a crock of shit! You obviously know nothing about programming or even the commonly used authentication systems. There are so many ways this could be done. The simplest would be for the secure GUID to be issued by the normal CD key authentication server and passed to the game server during the authentication process which is basically how the standard Quake 3 CD key authentication works right now. This would simply be one extra piece of data passed to the game server.

Where do you think the cd-key comes from?

The process you described is how PB works with CD-key authentication/encryption. PB is directly a part of the entire master server cd-key authentication process. This decision was made by the developer of each game.

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Game publishers sell their multiplayer games with the promise of being able to play them online. Sure, they don't typically host many if any servers themselves, but they have both enabled this capability and created the expectation of it. Therefore, those who purchase their games are lead to believe there will be servers available and publishers have a responsibility to meet that expectation they created. If server operator uses a system included with the game to ban a user who purchased the game from their particular server, that is one thing. However, when server operators collude to ban a user from all of their servers, then the publisher has created a de facto blacklist system and is not meeting its obligation to provide the blacklisted user with the capability to play online.


The servers are owned by server admins. They have an absolute right to refuse service to any player. Again, no questions asked.

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You admit PunkBuster makes mistakes and yet still maintain that it is 100% accurate. LOL!

LOL? Generally that's a condescending response and usually most forum readers find it obnoxious and annoying.

PB detects hacks with 100% accuracy. It doesn't detect non-hacks with 100% accuracy, sometimes there are mistakes, and the public is notified immediately, but this is rare.

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First, cheating at a video game especially in casual online play is hardly a capital offense although fanatical gamers act like it is. Unjust accusatory and discriminatory behavior is far more inequitable and offensive. Second, I am talking about a society not individual behavior. What makes a society civilized is that it has a system of laws in place which aspires to be egalitarian and respects the rights of the accused and the minority.

Indeed, but it also allows such a society to publically warn people, door to door, about rapists and child molestors moving into their area.

Quote:

I will repeat it since you seem to be a little slow. In a civilized society, as an individual you should have the right to discriminate in your personal affairs within reason. However, you should not have the right to collaborate with others to discriminate in a like manner as a group to deny access. Because when you do that, you effectively create a universal blacklist and an underclass made up of those who are denied.

So I as a male can join any feminist group and be admitted to woman abuse shelters? Can I join any religious organization even if my beliefs and behavior contradict them? Why can't I get senior discounts even though I'm not a senior?

Quote:

Your vocabulary is obviously lacking. A "judicial system" simply means to have a system in place where the accused can defend himself against accusation, and where no ban or other punishment is imposed until the accused is given this opportunity. A fair judicial system also incorporates an impartial magistrate to oversee this process to ensure that it is fair to the accused. Right now, if PunkBuster says a player is cheating he is immediately convicted and punished with no such guaranteed review. In addition, even if the accused is truly guilty of cheating, the punishment is a permanent and effectively universal ban given the collusion of server operators. A universal life sentence hardly fits this crime.

PunkBuster is the impartial magistrate you just mentioned.

Quote:


LOL! Some improvement. Without PunkBuster an individual server operator makes his own decision. Now, he lets PunkBuster do it for him. It's still subjective only now there is less review or individual responsibility since it is PunkBuster's developers and their code which makes the decision.

More LOL's. People do find those type of responses immature and self-serving, because most people don't find it funny, only the person saying "LOL".

PunkBuster only bans if a person is using a hack or cheat that breaks the PB EULA - that is a hack or cheat that tries to disable PunkBuster itself. All other bans are manually created by the server administrator.

Quote:

LOL! Game companies have complete control over the ability of their customers to play online when they implement an authentication system as exists in Quake 3. They further exercise control when they implement the potential for a universal blacklist system as PunkBuster does. Yes, they do not own all of the game servers, but they do enable play on them. Therefore, the game publishers have a responsibility to provide a place for ALL of their paying customers to play the game since they created the expectation and also control the means of doing so.

LOL again? It makes the person seem trollish and childish. It doesn't contribute to intellectual characterization, if anything, it tends to make the person seem desperate for a jab, yet failing at the delivery.

The server administrator owns and run the resources for the servers. It is at their cost and at their whim. If this were not the case, the publisher/developer would be running its own servers and exclude the ability of private servers from being able to kick/ban players.

Quote:


Those who get banned or otherwise excluded from playing most certainly do NOT get their money's worth. They don't get to play the game for which they paid.


It's called - single player and running your own server.

Dual 09-16-2003 09:00 AM

Re: Novalogic - Nice Game Engines - Bad Online Games
 
Ive played several PB games and I havent had a prob yet. The only people Ive seen it affect are cheaters and closet-cheaters [img]/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Terrynator 09-16-2003 02:02 PM

Re: You still have it wrong.
 
A word up front... I didn't check my spelling today either.

Riley_Pizt, I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you, it's what people like you do for entertainment. In your responses it is obvious that you have your opinions. Whether they are right or wrong is of no consequence to you it would seem.

I indicate when I post facts as compared to my comments, yet you still counter those with unsubstantiated statements and claims or of rights where they don't exist etc. I feel no need to continue addressing those points again just to satisfy you. You obviously you won't be satisfied unless I agreed with you.

I will address a couple of your assumptions however.
Who said I don't have the statistics to back up my statements.... you? Just because you are not privy to them and I may not be at liberty to disclose them in detail, doesn't mean your argument then prevails.

You seem to be confused about cheats vs cvars. I explained about false positives. Your aimbot analogy is just wrong. I don't know why you have trouble with what is theoretically possible, verses the reality of everyday operation of security software. It hasn't happened, so stop trying to scare people with your extremely low probability assumptions. The only reason I even mention 'theoretically possible' is because you would jump all over me if I said it was not possible. You would then claim a victory where there is none to be had.

As for cvars. PB doesn't set cvars by default. Any cvar limits are dictated by the game company and in some cases PB cvar system is not used because the contracted game company doesn't wish that feature available to admins.

Generally however, PB's ability to limit cvars is a tool for admins to use if they wish. An example would be to stop cheat commands being issued from the clients config or certain combinations of variables that contribute to a client 'warping' deliberately. I am aware that some admins don't use them in a manner you may not consider proper, but again it's the admins server. Don't confuse an admins desire to limit some variables to cheating. Again you try to scare people. People are not banned for setting their maxrate to high or low. They just can't get into that server. Obviously some settings an admin may use are more of a personal desire to have clients more closely configured for matches on his server. Go play on another one more to your liking as you are free to do that.

Again. PB is optional software for both the server and client. Play on non PB servers if you don't like it. If most servers are using it, then it tells you something about it's effectiveness and the desire of admins to use it.

Riley, you keep worrying about banning. Global banning by PB is reserved for clients that hack into the PB software itself. There has never been a false positive and I expect there never will be. Other banning types are by the game companies. IE: stolen cd-keys.
For the admins of servers the bans are local to that server or shared with other admins that wish to unite. It is their right and there is nothing illegal about it. Period Riley.

Now here is one of my facts. I have no idea why you keep beating on this. The servers belong to the admins and you have no rights on them. That goes for your game company responsabilty argument as well. Stop with your entitlement arguments they are not factual. Your opinion is just that about the issue. Don't believe me... go sue. It's been tried already. Get a real lawyer, don't try to play one.
If the game companies could be sued over this they would change the licience aggreements. Read what you agree to... not what you figure is fair to you.

Now for a few others.
Quote:

I said: You can't generate a secure guid unless it is also client side.
You said: What a crock of shit! You obviously know nothing about programming or even the commonly used authentication systems. There are so many ways this could be done. The simplest would be for the secure GUID to be issued by the normal CD key authentication server and passed to the game server during the authentication process which is basically how the standard Quake 3 CD key authentication works right now. This would simply be one extra piece of data passed to the game server.

I guess my statement was to simplistic for you. I'm sorry.
I was involved in the conception of id's game security and inclusion in Q3. I know intimately how it works. My statement was not in error, I just didn't supply details and nor do I intend to in this forum. However you seem to think you know how cd-key and guid work. Your expertise is gained from what experience??? You have some general street knowledge of cd-key security and nothing more and you erred in the authentication process description by the way.

Quote:

PB is an external DLL which also runs client-side. The few useful functions I specified above could be incorporated into the main executable like the CD key authentication routines currently are and executed only in server mode, and the client could be spared running anything extra.

Wrong for many reasons. Again you assume you understand how PB is integrated into the game, so then you make a huge leap to conclude you have the answer. I already told you PB is not just an external binary so don't conveniently forget that part. (it's also not a DLL by the way but it does use them). Perhaps you are the one lacking in knowledge.

Quote:

You admit PunkBuster makes mistakes and yet still maintain that it is 100% accurate. LOL!

Don't take what I said out of context. My response was based around the existing cheat detection operating normally, not a bug that could occur when an update is first exposed to thousands of different computers.. Again twisting things just enhances the troll label on you and lessens your credibility to discuss the issues.

Now to finish, as I won't get into arguing your highschool or college legal class and societal philosophy with you. You may think it is relevant but the reality is that it is not. So get off the bandwagon on the law and your interpretations of it... Get a lawyer that has procedured this kind of thing and post that. Game companies have lawyers... some of the best in the business of contractual law. They use them to write the contract with the consumer.
You on the other hand are just misleading people by giving the impression that if it sounds fair or that this is how society should be then this is how it is. In reality it is neither accurate or true.
You didn't even get the analogy about no shoes either. sigh. It's was not to be taken literally and interpreted by law. It was just something people can relate to. Geeze.

To anyone who might be reading this thread (although I wonder why myself). I'm not concerned with Riley_Pizt per say. There are plenty of people like him around. Most of his arguments are rehashes of things that have been well discussed in the gaming community.

I'm more concerned with people listening to him without some actual input from people involved in the evolution of online gaming and it's security. It's the reason I showed up when I was invited by escapedturkey to comment.

In closing out. Let me introduce myself a tiny little. I have been involved in the gaming industry for what?? over 10 years now.
Some here might even recognize my internet name as I have never changed it.(Yes I am also an avid gamer and proud of it. LOL) Some here even know me by reputation already.For those that don't know what I do, that's easy. I try and make your online gaming experience worthwhile. Most of my work is done behind the scenes with game companies and you never see it unless I reference it in a comment like I did above a couple of times, It's to make a point only when someone may take offence to one of my factual references.

Thanks to those that read this. Any legit questions I will try and come back to answer but I think I got most of them. I'm certainly done with Riley.

Vorax 09-17-2003 02:50 PM

Re: You still have it wrong.
 
I am not saying I agree with Riley, but it sounds like he may have run into the same kinds of problems I ran into with PunkBuster.

This was a while back and hopefully all of the issues with PB have been sorted out since then (like 5 or 6 months ago).

I reinstalled Q3 fresh from the CD and patched it all up. When I was installing the patch it said I should install PB also. Not knowing what it was at the time, I actually thought it may be a super popular mod (was a while since I was a serious Quake head), I said yes to the install.

I went a few rounds with bots to get myself refamilliarized with the game, I was addicted to a couple of years earlier, and went into ASE and found a server with a good ping. For the next 3 hours PB was kicking me out of servers saying violation detected or some crap like that. It was eating my CPU and downloading also. The downloads stopped but it just kept kicking me out of every server I went into that had PB on. I was getting pretty upset by then becuase I used to love Q3 and now it wasn't even playable. I did find some servers that I could get into that didn't have PB on, but none that I had a good ping at. I went back to ASE and found one that had the admins Email in their server vars. I sent him an email asking what was wrong because I kept getting kicked out. He replied back "Because my server is kicking you because you are a cheator asshole!"

I uninstalled Q3.

A month or two ago. I installed it again and all of these problems seem to be gone. However, I am still VERY weary of PB after this experience. I am Black listed on server servers now, but that is ok, becaues I am really only interested in looking at maps in Q3 now. After that experience Q3 was just not the same.

I think at least some of the admins thinking PB is so great are becaue they think so many cheaters have visited their server. But I am sure some of them were just people like me that PB was not working for. To be honest, I think anyone that is smart enough to make a cheat or install a cheat, would not have PB installed...seems kinda dumb to commit a crime while you phoning the police and telling them where you are...I was not cheating, yet I am sure that is what those guys that banned me thought.

Terrynator 09-17-2003 09:56 PM

Re: You still have it wrong.
 
I can understand your experience Vorax.
There are a few things that might temper your feelings a little, now that you can look back.
When PB was first considered by id, no other game company had made the leap to this kind of technology yet, although Valve was working on their own inhouse version. The only security around was third party code. We all know that server side only cheat protection was to easily bypassed and server client was just not efficiently updateable.

Q3 and wolfenstein were the first official fully integrated PB releases. Wolfenstien went much smother than Q3. The most significant difference between the two was that Q3 was badly hacked by the time the 1.32 patch came out. There was also a significant bug in the pb code that prevented automatic repair on many comps.
As it turned out digging out the cheats in Q3 was far more touchie than thought. Q3 is extremely sensitive to many things that will have a huge effect on how smooth it runs. Franky it is because Q3 is the fastest paced FPS game ever created. Games like wolf or Sof2 are far less sensitive.

There was a rocky start. I don't think anyone will disagree on that.
The newest games with PB have been far less problematic and smoother, as EvenBalance matured their technology.

Was the gaming public used as a guinea pig as some people say? I would guess yes, but I would have to qualify my agreement to that. The overriding factor is that nobody knew what was going to happen when it was released to thousands of computers and player configurations. You might say then that software should not be released with bugs. True, but there was no practical and economical way to find out. You must remember this was new tech on a wide scale. People forget there is a large server side to pb as well as the client and everything must be real slick to work.
Most people here may not remember the first releases of windows... it was horrid,..... more than horrid, and took years to mature reasonably.

As you say. PB seems to have worked it out. Yes, the product has matured.

As for your experience of banning from a server. PB doesn't ban like that. The admin has to add you to his permanent list. PB will just kick if your PB client does not init properly. So a poorly trained admin banned you not Punkbuster.
Poor admins exist and will always exist. It's impossible to change that.
It's also regretable that most admins did not know what to expect from PB, just like the players and didn't know how to use it. Again, people are getting used to this technology just like they have adapted to advances in software in the past. Support within the gaming community is there now to help new people get up to speed if that's required. People already are beginning to not think twice about it.

The vast majority of servers for games that have PB support are running PB. Just check the Q3, wolf,Sof2, AA, ET and RS servers. This tells you a lot about PB's maturity. The top servers and clan ladders run it.

As a side note.
The New admin supported PunksBusted (shared master ban list) now has registered 170 server admins with more being verified for reliability constantly. A huge backlog is yet to be processed.
Included on that membership are top rated server operations all 24/7. The regular admin and player membership is now over 1400 members and growing by about 50 a day. These are not fanatics. They are people that want dynamic anti-cheating software and they know it works. It's cheaters that fear it. Just check out their sites and IRC channels.



Grandpapa 09-30-2003 11:12 PM

Personal opinion...
 
I think PB is just great for ppl that are paranoid about cheaters, we all know that there are always some a-holes who just can't play without cheating, however i have seen about thousand times how ppl fingering talented players as cheaters, even if server has PB in use. And what comes to program itself, i had problems with earlier versions, but nowdays it seems much better and stable than it was. But personally i don't give a shit if someone cheats in game, that only shows cheaters own misery.

About BHD game then: i have had many great times playing it online and i couldn't care less about lack of supporting GSA or any else bs online browsing program, it has its own and so far it has bee enough for me finding servers. Overall i found it suprisingly fun to play and haven't regret buying it. Hopefully Ritual makes it even more fun to play, actually i believe they do.


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