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Stephen 05-16-2006 10:16 PM

Sin PHYSICS
 
I dob't know how other HL2 players feel, but I am getting very frustrated by the implentation of the physics in Sin. The biggest problem is what happens when a gamer tries to release an object. The durn thing flys through the air in fairly random ways.
Also, there are times in the game when you should be able to climb over a fence with the help of some barrels or some such, and the game just does'nt allow you to step over it, even though you are high enough. Alother situation is when the trucks carrying enemy soldiers stop in the fence gates. You should be able to climb over them, but you can'.t

This all make the game a little hard to enjoy, because one doesn't know if it is the game or the player which is failing any given challenge.

Parnic 05-17-2006 01:13 PM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
You can drop items you have picked up by simply pressing use again. This will cause them to fall straight down from your hand. When throwing an item, it throws it based on where you picked it up. So if you pick up a health canister on the end and throw it, it will flip around more than if you pick it up in the middle.

Things like not being able to get over fences or cars have nothing to do with the main storyline in the game - ergo they are not indicative of anyone's skill if you simply cannot cross them. Those are there to prevent you from getting outside the game world. In order to prevent the player being able to jump somewhere and get stuck/not be able to jump back, we have chosen to block the player from being able to get to that area.

I'm sorry if these issues are hindering your enjoyment of the game, but they are fairly common even in games such as Half-Life 2.

KalZakath 05-17-2006 02:44 PM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
Heh, I try to get to the most bizarre places when I play FPS games [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] It comes from my Q1 days I think, where some of the secrets involved jumping to strange places [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] In particular if it's flat, and it's high up, I'll try to reach it [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] There is a limit though - no game provides a world where there is something interesting and accessible over every wall and fence - it just isn't possible.

Stephen 05-17-2006 09:54 PM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
Belive me, I've played hl2 for ages, and I know that one releases objects by a second tap of the use key [img]/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]. But in my SIN emergence game, the objects do not fall out of ones hand as directed by gravity! Rather they fly off in unpredictible directions, unpredictable distances. If I had the skill, I'd make a wmv movie of my results. One place I noticed it was when I tried to stack a garbage can on top of a box so that I could get up to a fence top. I'd try to set the can down as gently as I could, buy it would behave in unpredictable ways. And now, i'm stuck in the reactor cooling room trying to turn off the rheostat? When I turn it off it self powers back on ? I've tried placing objects on top of the rheostat handle to make the durn thing stay down. If I have blade jump on top of the handle I/he can stop it. Otherwise, if I place one of the PCs (which are running the displays in the reactor coolilng room) on the handle it, the handle, just goes right through the box. But my main gripe here is that objects (PCs in this case) often fly off in strange directions. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Stephen 05-17-2006 09:59 PM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
BTW, I meant Sin Episode (1), not Sin Emergence.

Parnic 05-17-2006 10:29 PM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
I understand what you mean now. Forcing an object below where it is supposed to go causes a slingshot effect when releasing the object. I didn't mean to imply you were dumb or inexperienced, just trying to offer some advice.

Make sure the item is set down where you want it to go before pressing use again. If it is rubbing against the surface you wish to place it on, it causes the object to slingshot when you release it. Thanks for your feedback.

Zinsane 05-17-2006 10:31 PM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
I just ran through, hold the button down as long as you can till it wont move any further then haul ass.

Stephen 05-18-2006 09:59 AM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
Thanks for the tip! I tried that one time w/o much success. I'll try it again and really really haul ass this time! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

But, you know, I'm beginning to think that since I ran past the first few secrets w/o finding them, that my game experience differered from the game experience of those that find all? or most? secrets. And sure enough, when I restarted the game and found all of the secrets, my game path was very different from the first time. So I'm beginning to suspect that my experience in the cooler room will differ this time around. I guess we better find those durn secrets, eh ?

Perhaps the game (and this is a question I'd like answered) is impossible to win (get to the end of) w/o finding most of the secrets along the way. Does this mean that we can't just barrel along as fast as we want but must linger to find secrets??????




Parnic 05-18-2006 12:14 PM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
The "critical path," so to speak, of the game is not altered by the secrets. There are items in the secret areas that will help your progress through the game (such as extra ammo, mega health, etc.) but none alter your required path. The same ending is shown whether you found all or none. But keep looking for them because they usually have fun little easter eggs in them [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Stephen 05-19-2006 02:59 AM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
Hi again. Today I tried for a few *hours* to pile three garbage cans one atop the othe, and then another two next to the three. It was almost impossible. Getting the cans right way up after they fell over was pure torture, with cans bounding to the left, right and straight up every time I let them go. And its not just forcing an object below where it is "supposed to go" (What do you mean, phsicis wise, by that statement?) Like, imagine trying to flip a can over so that it is right side up. You lift it towards one of the large shipping crates lying around, brushing can against box corner to tilt the garbage can on its axis in an attempt to make it flip over. Once that can has been tilted, it seems never to forget that it was ever made to tilt and will bound off at all angles when I set it down (and belive me, I am setting them down very gently, 100% level and upright, and most certainly, not below where they are supposed to go. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Finally I would up cornering the can in a corner with Blade's body and waking closr and closer to to the corner till the force field from gun to can broke of its own accord and viola, one can down on the ground (99 botles to go)

You have to do better. You are using Valave's engine, and Valve's objects never reacted this way. Do they have some secret method that they are not telling?

I am not a game designer, nor a map maker, and I don't know what's involved nor why Sins objects ricochet and hl2s do not. I just hope I am not asking for the impossible.


Sarkie 05-19-2006 07:25 AM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
I think "critical path" comes back into it, do you need to stack the objects up, they may be top heavy so stacking is impossible. But if they are used to be thrown or the hide behind or such, not to be stacked upon each other to reach the rest of the level, then I believe this isn't really needed.

Parnic 05-19-2006 11:14 AM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
I'm very confused as to why you are having such a tough time with the physics in the game but I see no other complaints about the issue nor have I experienced what you speak of myself. Can you make a video of this phenomenon that has you upset? I'd like to see what you're referring to so we can help you understand why it's behaving that way.

Sarkie 05-19-2006 02:41 PM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Parnic:
Can you make a video of this phenomenon that has you upset? I'd like to see what you're referring to so we can help you understand why it's behaving that way.

http://www.fraps.com/

is a good one to use

wisecode 05-19-2006 03:00 PM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
Collisions are very complex in the Source engine, to say the least.

Take for example the collision area for a trashcan.
What may not be obvious about concave objects is their more elaborate collision interactions.
When some props are created an additional collision mesh is often created to accommodate the concave area.
Take for example the interactions of HL2 Plastic crates within water volumes.
The Source engine in-game physics for the Player and objects is spectacular but not without limitations or oddities.

Stephen 05-21-2006 08:21 PM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
I'll make a movie of the behavior in question wherein fairly heavy garbage cans fly off in all directions when released.

If you just can't wait for the movie (smile) the phenomena in question should become evident by attempting the following.

You are in the dock warehouses, You go up a flight of stairs, open a door and find yourself on a balcony. Below you is a small closed yard with a barbed wire fence to the left. You have to blow up a hanging girder so that it unlocks a gate in the barbed wire fence. Then you jump over the balcony and fight a small battle prior to entering the lighthouse level.


Before blowing up that can which dislodges the hanging girder....

Gather 4 or 5 garbage cans and one or two used oil cans and pre-position them on the balcony. Blow up the oil can below the balcony, the girder crashes to the ground, and ends up canted against the barbed wire fence, almost pointing like an arrow to a ladder coming down the side of the building on the other side of said fence. Ladder ends 20 feet in the air.

Pile up three garbage cans one atop the other, right underneath the ladder. Pile up two cans next to the three, and place one next to the two. Once these are in place you will be able to climb up to the ladder. You should end up cursing and spitting before you can get all of the cans in place. Once a garbage can tips over during the maneuvering, you have to turn it right side up, and as you find yourself doing that over and over, the directions that garbage cans start to take when released seem to get worse and worse. Since the large crates to the right of the ladder are large, i.e. almost at the same height as the 2nd or 3rd can, I often tried to use the crates to flip the cans upright so that they would be upright and at the same level as the 2nd or 3rd can.


Another oddity is that the poles holding the girder in the air end up like pickup sticks in the small yard. You cannot affect these metal poles on your own, but if you are moving a garbage can, you can hook these poles and move them however you wish.

Also, re valve engine, I realize that boxes in the water acted a 'bit' odd, but only a bit. One could not, for-instance, ride on them, they would always tip over, and that seems lifelike. There is not one instance of valve physical actions/reactions that were overtly weird. Everything seemed to act like its corresponding object in real life.




10Stars 05-22-2006 07:20 PM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen:
I'll make a movie of the behavior in question wherein fairly heavy garbage cans fly off in all directions when released.

If you just can't wait for the movie (smile) the phenomena in question should become evident by attempting the following.

You are in the dock warehouses, You go up a flight of stairs, open a door and find yourself on a balcony. Below you is a small closed yard with a barbed wire fence to the left. You have to blow up a hanging girder so that it unlocks a gate in the barbed wire fence. Then you jump over the balcony and fight a small battle prior to entering the lighthouse level.


Before blowing up that can which dislodges the hanging girder....

Gather 4 or 5 garbage cans and one or two used oil cans and pre-position them on the balcony. Blow up the oil can below the balcony, the girder crashes to the ground, and ends up canted against the barbed wire fence, almost pointing like an arrow to a ladder coming down the side of the building on the other side of said fence. Ladder ends 20 feet in the air.

Pile up three garbage cans one atop the other, right underneath the ladder. Pile up two cans next to the three, and place one next to the two. Once these are in place you will be able to climb up to the ladder. You should end up cursing and spitting before you can get all of the cans in place. Once a garbage can tips over during the maneuvering, you have to turn it right side up, and as you find yourself doing that over and over, the directions that garbage cans start to take when released seem to get worse and worse. Since the large crates to the right of the ladder are large, i.e. almost at the same height as the 2nd or 3rd can, I often tried to use the crates to flip the cans upright so that they would be upright and at the same level as the 2nd or 3rd can.


Another oddity is that the poles holding the girder in the air end up like pickup sticks in the small yard. You cannot affect these metal poles on your own, but if you are moving a garbage can, you can hook these poles and move them however you wish.

Also, re valve engine, I realize that boxes in the water acted a 'bit' odd, but only a bit. One could not, for-instance, ride on them, they would always tip over, and that seems lifelike. There is not one instance of valve physical actions/reactions that were overtly weird. Everything seemed to act like its corresponding object in real life.






Umm, excuse me but WHY WOULD YOU TAKE THE TIME TO DO THAT??

Did you spend 20$ (or 17.95) To sit there and stack trash cans? ITS NOT A BIG DEAL. IT DOES NOT AFFECT GAMEPLAY. IT IS A TRASH CAN.

ertertwert 05-22-2006 09:05 PM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
Some people like to do this. Who are to tell them how to spend their money?

Mido 05-23-2006 12:01 AM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
Nothing's more fun than playing with a game engine.

Stephen 05-29-2006 06:11 PM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
Hello Sin Fans,
Here is a little move clip Flying Cans which shows me trying to place a used oil can on top of a garbage can. When I set the oil can down on the garbage can, the fuel oil can just hops right into the air. It gets worse, too.

Gibaholic 05-29-2006 09:39 PM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
Are you kidding me? I spent like 5 minutes throwing garbage in trashcans, no joke.

Scared 05-30-2006 02:21 AM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
Stephen, in that video you made you cans ee that while you have the barrel/can selected you are trying to push it into the wall, therefore making it go into a place it cant go

i know its not intentional, but thats why its going out, because its not supposed to be in that place [through the wall] so it pushes it backwards.

guru7892 05-30-2006 03:45 AM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
Quote:

Originally posted by 10Stars:Umm, excuse me but WHY WOULD YOU TAKE THE TIME TO DO THAT??

Did you spend 20$ (or 17.95) To sit there and stack trash cans? ITS NOT A BIG DEAL. IT DOES NOT AFFECT GAMEPLAY. IT IS A TRASH CAN.

[sarcasem] you just don't get it do you?[/sarcasm]

acually i had a freind try to kill a grunt with a gun...
but he treid to THROW the gun to kill the grunt. his lack of sanity is strange at times; but often yeilds unexpected results.

Quote:

Originally posted by Gibaholic:
Are you kidding me? I spent like 5 minutes throwing garbage in trashcans, no joke.

there are jobs, like sanitation workers, that I think nobody wants to do. but then again I am constantly remined that everyone is diffrent and has a perfect job waiting for them.

you my freind make this world cleaner and take joy doing it... you are also why robots will never do all the meanial chores of life and try to take over the world.

thank you.

Parnic 05-30-2006 12:21 PM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Scared:
Stephen, in that video you made you cans ee that while you have the barrel/can selected you are trying to push it into the wall, therefore making it go into a place it cant go

i know its not intentional, but thats why its going out, because its not supposed to be in that place [through the wall] so it pushes it backwards.

Yes, this is the behavior I was referring to earlier in this thread. When the can gets mashed against the wall and you release it, it is creating an outward force from the wall.

Stephen 05-30-2006 10:49 PM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
Most of the time that I want to place a can, it is tilted at the time that it that I would like to place it. If I let that tilted can go, it will topple off its new intented resting place.

I *have* to scrape the can against a wall or some other surface in order to make it align with the surface below. Also, if a can is picked up from a surface, and placed somewhere higher than its starting point, then that can *will be at an angle with respect to vertical at the new higher level* How does one get the 2nd can into alignment if we cannot use some vertical surface to force the can into alignment?

Another aspsct of Sin physics is that objects seem to remember that they have picked up some force vectors even if the object in question has been returned to a dead level position.

I'll just let the whole matter drop if you are satisfied with your explanations about bending walls and such, but I think this behavior should be fixed because it is not valid virtual behavior.


Parnic 05-31-2006 01:35 PM

Re: Sin PHYSICS
 
I'm not trying to write off the physics system as being perfect, nor am I a dev on this project. I can understand your sarcasm in my "explanations about bending walls and such" but I am just trying to explain why you're seeing what you're seeing. All feedback received by the community is being passed on to the development team for episode 2 and all future episodes, so your feedback is certainly heard. I have compiled two videos of myself in the same area stacking items.

*NOTE* Yes, my framerate is terrible in these videos. There are several reasons for that.

Here is a video of stacking items vertically (which I never do when I'm playing -- this is just for example). There are many ways to stack items vertically, this is just one.
http://www.parnic.com/files/stacking_vertically.wmv

Here is a video of stacking the second trash can horizontally, which is actually the method I use to reach high levels when I'm testing the game.
http://www.parnic.com/files/stacking_horizontally.wmv


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