I didn’t have a chance to respond to this post for awhile.
There are some huge freakin posts going these days. Maybe we should copy them and put them together and sell it as a book titled “what we do in our spare time””
HAHA. Yea, cant believe I have been typing this much as well. I will go ahead and start writing the book now. LOL
“Early on I found that complex multi layered layouts could some times agitate players to a point that they might start trash talking the level designer. Simple is the way to go for Defuse maps. “
“I knew that if people had a certain type of sound card they could hear farther than most people in CS but I never knew that the foot step sounds would stay the same on multi floored layouts, though I already shunned the idea of doing huge multi floored layouts for other reasons. When I see levels like Italy and Dust I tend to think that is more along the lines of what people actually want to play and all though those levels have a small bit of over under fighting they are primarily flat. That’s the style I enjoy most myself.”
Yes, I believe that good size multi-level maps COULD have some good fun, but I believe due to the problem with the sound at the moment. It is a real drawback for those maps that fall into this category. Though like you pointed out, some maps that are primarily flat with some multi level above and underground fighting tend to fare well, and are generally accepted as fun.
“You have a good point about the balancing of the levels though. I never did think about that. The only way to ever create a truly even level though is to make it symmetrical similar to the style of many quake CTF levels. I don’t see how you could pull that off exactly in CS though considering CTs and TS both have different objectives AND weapons. So yeah come to think about it there aren’t a whole lot of even CS maps out there. Breaking down CS I seem to quickly find that it’s almost a mystery on how they “balanced” the game at all. When I play I always feel like it’s a fair game so I imagine the work that went into making CS fun to play must have been by some very astute and dedicated individuals. The mod community is truly a dynamic force in modern gaming.”
Yea, out of all the maps I have played and look at (Which I lost count long ago. I got hundreds of megabytes worth of them). There has only been one that has been pretty much universally seen as being close to even and that has been de_nuke. Its pretty much the de facto map for championship games. As to the game and this mod overall I just think its seen as simply being a very fun game and it has pretty much met the one thing that all good games must be, and that is fun, fun, fun, and must the ability to suck the life and time out of you. LOL
“When it comes to hostage rescue levels I tend to see more complex layouts when compared to your basic defuse maps. Hostage Rescue seems to be more about allowing CTS to have lots of choices. The trick seems to be in balancing as many of those choices against what a skilled group of TS will be able to defend against effectively. One thing that I noted about cs_italy is that the number of choices the CTS can make steadily drops as they close in on the radius of the house. There might be about 4 ways to reach the house but you’re only left with the front door and possibly a window to choose between when you get there.”
Exactly. That map is actually hugely one sided to the T side. 5 dedicated Ts can lock it down again a group of CTs twice its size. This is one of the few maps I believe that is still hugely popular yet most people think is fair and fun to play. The only reason I think it is this way because a lot of times the Ts will leave the house and go out to meet the CTs. Would be kinda of funny to see 10 Ts inside that house and watch a few nades take them all out. So I think since most people on both sides like to fan out and attack on this map. It bypasses the illusion of being hugely one sided, and a huge camp fest like siege or assault.
“VIP levels puzzle me right now. I’m currently unhappy with tundra and oilrig to examine as examples of what a good VIP level should have. Either maps seem to have anything at all in common with each other. To me that might imply that no one has ever actually tapped into the full potential of the VIP game mode. All hostage levels have 4 hostages and all defuse levels have 2 bomb sites however I fail to see why tundra has 2 rescue zones rather than one rescue zone like oil rig. Both of these levels are more confusing and winding than anything I have seen in CS. Perhaps I need to look elsewhere to find out what really makes this mode function. “
OK, out of all the map types that have been created, you are right. This one pretty much bucks the trend in map design. However like you said, no one has really yet, ever tapped it to its full potential. Most mappers focus on the de or cs maps, and as to the layout of the maps. I believe the key ingredient is to have it where the CTs along with the VIP must drive forward through multiple layers of T ambush spots with lots of intense action taking place. I get asked all the time what is my favorite map ever, and without a doubt it would be Version 1 of cs_office. The intense action that took place on that map as CTs before they modified it to where its at today was absolutely intense, and a huge blast, and even though its a cs_ map, I loved that map and if you could make an as_ map like that, with that kind of action and gameplay, then it would be absolutely awesome.
Here also are the specs of what an as_ map are according to valve. This might help explain the one or two rescue points, and the general theme of as_ maps.
"Your map should be similar to a TFC hunted map in architecture. Have the Terrorists spawn not all in one group... spread them out. Also construct elevated sniper roosts where the T's will spawn. The T's will all be in hiding spots and roosts that a typical Assassin would be in (ready and waiting with his AWP to pick off that VIP). You'll want to make your map with plenty of open space. Remember, most Assassins will be snipers, so give them plenty of roosts and spots great for sniping. Maps should be relatively linear, with the VIP having to get from one end to the other. However, make sure you have alternate routes (not just one route), pehaps 2 routes is best. Click here for a diagram of an Assassination map that Gooseman has drafted up.
• Your map must have Terrorist spawns that are sniper roosts and hiding spots.
• CT's should have 13 spawns, T's should have 10 spawns
• Your map must have more than 1 route to the escapezone, vary it.
• Your map must have open spaces suitable for sniping.
• Your map must have at least one escape zone, preferably 2
• Your map should be similar to TFC hunted maps, but the gameplay is not all that similar.
• Your map must not have any entities from other modes of play in it, ie hostage_entitys.
• Your map must be fairly linear, but with a few different routes (perhaps 2).
• Your map may have a car or helicopter or something to denote escapezones.
• Your map must have the prefix As_. Example: As_Oilrig"
A couple of other maps you might want to take a look at. That I thought were fun are as_forest and as_highrise. Both of those were released in early betas but never made it to final release. I think as_forest did not make it because it was hard to counter the machine gun nests that were on it that the Ts used. Since the CTs could not buy sniper guns. (Always hated that part.) As to why highrise did not make it to final I am not sure, since a lot of people liked it at the time considering it was an as_ map.
“Anyway to end this GIANT DAMN POST
I would like to know if there are any truly hardcore mapping forums for CS maps where most of the people who post there have released a few good maps that people have played. Either that or maybe you could bring some people here. If I have time ill even check out peoples beta maps and stuff over the weekends if the screen shots look cool enough. It could be like the counter strike equivalent of the quake 3 world forums. I value that kind of feedback because it is what has got me to where I am today.”
Hehe…Here you go. I get asked a lot to look at maps and modify. I will cut and past a lot of the links for you below. This should help you. Please forgive if some of the links no longer work, and you might need to use a language translator for a few of them. Been a while since I weeded through all of them. &#61514;
General Valve Mapping Rules
Maps and Map Reviews
(Good map section)
(Nice 2d layouts of the more common maps.)
(Lots of mappers go here.)
(Maker of Inferno and Aztec to name a few)
(Maker of Dust, Dust2)
Damn this is huge too.