Ritualistic Forums

Go Back   Ritualistic Forums > Ritual Entertainment Games > SiN Episodes

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-17-2005, 03:09 PM   #51
Apprentice
Veteran
 
Apprentice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Coruscant
Posts: 251
Default Re: Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects ?

Quote:
Originally posted by Varsity:
At least until it is fixed.
Which might take a very long while, given the past two years as primary example of how vulnerable the system was and still is . . .
Apprentice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 09:40 AM   #52
Varsity
Casual
 
Varsity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: England
Posts: 26
Default Re: Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects ?

I don't know when this new hole was discovered but before it Steam, though not HL1, had been secure for at least a year.
Varsity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2005, 05:13 AM   #53
Apprentice
Veteran
 
Apprentice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Coruscant
Posts: 251
Default Re: Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects ?

Over a thousand views since I posted my questions and still no response from Ritual. Makes me considering to spend my money on other games who's questions are being answered and who's concerns being addressed by it's developer and aquire this developer's title through different means. Tell me, why should I spend money on a game if my questions and concerns aren't answered by its developer ?? What kind of signal would give to Ritual's potential customer base ??

So be it . . .

If a software developer is not interested with the questions, comments and concerns from it's potential userbase, then they are also clearly not interested within the money they can gain from the same potential userbase.
Apprentice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2005, 10:37 AM   #54
doomdragon
Experienced
 
doomdragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 114
Default Re: Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects ?

What question? Why they are using steam?
Because they could not find a publisher that would just release a Sin2 without insisting on the rights for the Sin universe or possible sequels.
They just want to keep control over their own creative property.
doomdragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2005, 10:42 AM   #55
DrWoo McM
Fanboy
 
DrWoo McM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 836
Default Re: Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects ?

Quote:
Originally posted by Apprentice:
Over a thousand views since I posted my questions and still no response from Ritual. Makes me considering to spend my money on other games who's questions are being answered and who's concerns being addressed by it's developer and aquire this developer's title through different means. Tell me, why should I spend money on a game if my questions and concerns aren't answered by its developer ?? What kind of signal would give to Ritual's potential customer base ??

So be it . . .

If a software developer is not interested with the questions, comments and concerns from it's potential userbase, then they are also clearly not interested within the money they can gain from the same potential userbase.
Well, perhaps you should take it as a sign! Itís obvious that you arenít real crazy over steam or what it stands for, so take this as your opportunity to go hang out in another studioís forums and banter over their upcoming next release. Or you can probably wait until all 6 episodes are complete and pickup a copy of the game in the stores.

Personally I donít think its any sign of the quality of the people at Ritual just because they havenít answered your questions regarding Sin via steam. It is what it is and thatís about it.

Woo!
DrWoo McM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2005, 10:48 AM   #56
DarkStar
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 231
Default Re: Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects ?

Quote:
Posted by: DoomDragon

What question? Why they are using steam?
Because they could not find a publisher that would just release a Sin2 without insisting on the rights for the Sin universe or possible sequels.
They just want to keep control over their own creative property.
That basically sums it up. There's wouldn't be a Sin E. if it's wasn't for steam. It's not like Ritual just said "Hey let's use steam". They tried to shop it around, before going with Steam. Atleast that's my understanding.

Just be happy we're getting it at all.
DarkStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2005, 05:09 AM   #57
ParadoX
Director of Development
 
ParadoX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Dallas
Posts: 31
Default Re: Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects ?

Quote:
Apprentice said:
<A bunch of opinions and a single question>

Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects that Steam has to offer ??
Yes.
ParadoX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2005, 07:15 AM   #58
Apprentice
Veteran
 
Apprentice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Coruscant
Posts: 251
Default Re: Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects ?

Quote:
Originally posted by ParadoX:
Yes.
Could you also elaborate on that ??
Apprentice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2005, 08:42 AM   #59
jarro_2783
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6
Default Re: Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects ?

Quote:
Originally posted by ParadoX:
Quote:
Apprentice said:
<A bunch of opinions and a single question>

Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects that Steam has to offer ??
Yes.
I don't think you have. I really don't think you actually realise how easy it is to pirate games using steam. It is no effort pirating. As apprentice said, the games you download are even in ready to use form, not some zip, rar, exe installer or iso. So it doesn't take extra hd space and you can play straight away. It is delivered straight from the legit content servers, so it is as fast as it possibly can be, and steam just makes it so easy to do so.

By using steam you have just opened your game up to be pirated by more people than any other game except for hl2 of course.

Just write your own content distribution system. What is so hard about writing a maybe 500 line program that compiles at 50kb and does the job. All it needs to do is send you key to the master server, it checks if it's valid and if it is it ties it to your account. Then whenever you login it checks with the master server what games you have. Master server sends games list, program lets you play. It could also check the record every time you make a download request. That way you can't fake to be legit. I don't know why steam wasn't made that way in the first place. What is all this nonsense with the main exe and dlls being 5mb, after disassembly it is clear that steam doesn't even use half the functions that are built into it, and the program sucks. The way I just described the program would use about 50kb of ram as opposed to steams 50mb, use no cpu and would actually prevent piracy.
As for updates, you could make it download actual patches with an installer, and ask the user first. Not some stupid system that just automatically downloads stuff, and say you have the files on a cd and you format your computer, you can't keep the patch because there is no patch file. So you are stuck with having to download the whole patch again.
jarro_2783 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2005, 02:50 PM   #60
a_nevels666
Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 71
Default Re: Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects ?

Quote:
Originally posted by jarro_2783:
Quote:
Originally posted by ParadoX:
Quote:
Apprentice said:
<A bunch of opinions and a single question>

Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects that Steam has to offer ??
Yes.
I don't think you have. I really don't think you actually realise how easy it is to pirate games using steam. It is no effort pirating. As apprentice said, the games you download are even in ready to use form, not some zip, rar, exe installer or iso. So it doesn't take extra hd space and you can play straight away. It is delivered straight from the legit content servers, so it is as fast as it possibly can be, and steam just makes it so easy to do so.

By using steam you have just opened your game up to be pirated by more people than any other game except for hl2 of course.

Just write your own content distribution system. What is so hard about writing a maybe 500 line program that compiles at 50kb and does the job. All it needs to do is send you key to the master server, it checks if it's valid and if it is it ties it to your account. Then whenever you login it checks with the master server what games you have. Master server sends games list, program lets you play. It could also check the record every time you make a download request. That way you can't fake to be legit. I don't know why steam wasn't made that way in the first place. What is all this nonsense with the main exe and dlls being 5mb, after disassembly it is clear that steam doesn't even use half the functions that are built into it, and the program sucks. The way I just described the program would use about 50kb of ram as opposed to steams 50mb, use no cpu and would actually prevent piracy.
As for updates, you could make it download actual patches with an installer, and ask the user first. Not some stupid system that just automatically downloads stuff, and say you have the files on a cd and you format your computer, you can't keep the patch because there is no patch file. So you are stuck with having to download the whole patch again.
Dude, you seriously think they haven't considered that yet?

Even if they did go to the trouble of writing their own content distibution system, you think theirs would somehow be immune to being hacked?

No system is impossible to hack and as long as a program stops casual piracy, it's already succesfull. Steam helped prevent plenty of piracy.
a_nevels666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2005, 04:23 PM   #61
Apprentice
Veteran
 
Apprentice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Coruscant
Posts: 251
Default Re: Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects ?

Quote:
Originally posted by a_nevels666:
Steam helped prevent plenty of piracy.
OMG what did you take today ?? :')
Apprentice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2005, 04:31 PM   #62
JezzyBall
Community Moderator
 
JezzyBall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Madtown, Wisconsin
Posts: 955
Send a message via MSN to JezzyBall
Default Re: Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects ?

Quote:
Originally posted by Apprentice:
Quote:
Originally posted by a_nevels666:
Steam helped prevent plenty of piracy.
OMG what did you take today ?? :')
You steam trolls really need to find somewhere else to roam.

http://www.gettingit.com/static/inte...es_usenet.html

You rant and spew and no one really gives a damn. Welcome to my ignore list.
JezzyBall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2005, 03:31 AM   #63
jarro_2783
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6
Default Re: Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects ?

Quote:
Welcome to my ignore list
Yeah, whatever, good for you.
The content management system I just proposed would be difficult to hack and would work a lot better than steam. Before you try and tell me I'm wrong, I have quite a bit of experience in programming and I know what I'm talking about.
I also think you don't what you are talking about when you say steam has stopped casual pirating. Because it hasn't. It has made casual pirating more easy. You go to a certain forum (which I won't mention here), and download a little crack they have and there you have it. Sounds pretty casual to me. It was harder when they had things like cd checks to get around, that was less than casual, steam is casual.

We are not steam trolls, we are realistic, we actually know how ridiculous steam is and aren't hiding behind our pretense of a "perfect steam" that the rest of you obviously are.
jarro_2783 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2005, 11:48 AM   #64
DrWoo McM
Fanboy
 
DrWoo McM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 836
Default Re: Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects ?

Quote:
Originally posted by jarro_2783:
Quote:
Welcome to my ignore list
Yeah, whatever, good for you.
The content management system I just proposed would be difficult to hack and would work a lot better than steam. Before you try and tell me I'm wrong , I have quite a bit of experience in programming and I know what I'm talking about.
I also think you don't what you are talking about when you say steam has stopped casual pirating. Because it hasn't. It has made casual pirating more easy. You go to a certain forum (which I won't mention here), and download a little crack they have and there you have it. Sounds pretty casual to me. It was harder when they had things like cd checks to get around, that was less than casual, steam is casual.

We are not steam trolls, we are realistic, we actually know how ridiculous steam is and aren't hiding behind our pretense of a "perfect steam" that the rest of you obviously are.
<font color="black"> </font>

Your wrong!

Like it or not Steam is the defacto standard in CMSís today, so why should Ritual go out of there way to write their own? Even more, why in the world would they try and compete with the company that they are licensing the game engine from? Dude, Iím glad you write code because you clearly donít have any business sense. Let Ritual focus in on build content, not a content management system.
DrWoo McM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2005, 01:22 PM   #65
Apprentice
Veteran
 
Apprentice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Coruscant
Posts: 251
Default Re: Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects ?

Quote:
Originally posted by DrWoo McM:
Like it or not Steam is the defacto standard in CMSís today, so why should Ritual go out of there way to write their own? Even more, why in the world would they try and compete with the company that they are licensing the game engine from? Dude, Iím glad you write code because you clearly donít have any business sense. Let Ritual focus in on build content, not a content management system.
Steam and the Source engine are two seporate items, which can be licenced as such. Take for example "Pirates of the burning sea", which will use Steam as primary distribution platform but does not use the Source engine. An example for the other way around is "Vampire the Masqerade: Bloodlines", which uses the Source engine but doesn't utilize Steam as distribution platform.

Even if Ritual decided to create an own platform to release their games as an competitor for Steam, there would be no reason for VALVe to reject Ritual's apply for licencing the Source engine. That such a thing would happen due to VALVe's oversized ego is another story . . .
Apprentice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2005, 04:30 AM   #66
jarro_2783
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6
Default Re: Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects ?

You clearly don't know what you are talking about. It would be more business sense to make their own. It would seriously take someone like two days at the most. Then they would make more money from the prevention of piracy than they lost by spending two days writing their own content distribution system.
The other option is to not have a content distribution system and stick with the good old days of putting a game in a box on a shelf.
jarro_2783 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2005, 11:37 AM   #67
DrWoo McM
Fanboy
 
DrWoo McM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 836
Default Re: Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects ?

Quote:
Originally posted by jarro_2783:
The other option is to not have a content distribution system and stick with the good old days of putting a game in a box on a shelf.
Listen script kiddy, don't you realize that this isn't an option for them. As for writing their own CMS, you being a coder should realize that the code is a small piece of the total package. They have to build a support system around their code for all the consumers that would use their CMS. I'll say it again. You have no business sense.
DrWoo McM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2005, 02:35 PM   #68
Xenogenetic
Addict
 
Xenogenetic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 1,120
Default Re: Has Ritual clearly considered all the aspects ?

Oh thats not true, he knows games go in boxes.
Xenogenetic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2005, 06:44 PM   #69
ninken
Fanboy
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Springfield, OH
Posts: 738
Default Re: To steam or not to steam....

Its coming out threw steam first, then in stores later on, buy it anyway you like! How else do you propose a episodic game to be release with user input. If they release in stores it will be 2years a episode! [img]/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Nothing you can say or post is going to change it.

Now Steam is in question if its able to handle it, or if the bugs are worked out. Only time will tell!

NUFF SAID this topic is over!
ninken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2005, 11:02 PM   #70
Xenogenetic
Addict
 
Xenogenetic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 1,120
Default Re: To steam or not to steam....

Only badman decides when its over, but until then this is the first thread I started that has been a "popular topic".
Xenogenetic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2005, 12:08 AM   #71
Disneyland
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1
Default Re: To steam or not to steam....

Why is it that I have been using Steam for a full year now, and I've never had slow downloads, never had crashes -- in fact, never had a negative experience? I'm totally anal about web clients, tunnels and gaming services too. I would have removed it at the first sign of inconvenience. I have, quite literally, been 100% pleased with the functionality of Steam. I agree that it could use a more appealing skin set, but otherwise it does everything I need. As for not being able to play single player content when offline: the integrity of the product's security checks through Steam are crucial, irrespective of the type of gaming you intend to do. I'm totally fine with having to run Steam (initially) for a Valve game start-up.

How odd that a small group of people would be so vocally negative about Steam when millions of players are using it to connect to rousing games of CS: Source and HL2: Deathmatch every night, without problem nor complaint. Surely with games this huge and popular, a service's failings (i.e., your claims of Steam's incompetence) would be an enormous issue. Why am I not seeing it in the headlines? Why is Steam still successful and trusted? Why is Ritual going to be using Steam?

Because it works, obviously. Because Ritual trusts in the credibility and integrity of the service. Because Valve has offered to foster independent developers by publishing their works directly to players' homes and indie developers can enjoy unheard of royalty benefits and creative control. And because Ritual will help to encourage other idie developers to try new publishing methods. All it takes is one big hit and the floodgates will open. SiN Episodes is that hit.

Jesus, people.
Disneyland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2005, 02:10 AM   #72
Xenogenetic
Addict
 
Xenogenetic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 1,120
Default Re: To steam or not to steam....

Welllllll, either you are lying, or these people really like their boxes.
Xenogenetic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2005, 06:16 AM   #73
jarro_2783
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6
Default Re: To steam or not to steam....

I'm not a little script kiddie, and I know more about business sense than you think. All you have to do is set up the system and make sure the servers stay up, after that you can just leave it.
I'm not even saying steam is such a bad thing in itself, it has it's issues because it was badly written, but it would do the job. The main thing is that it is so easy to pirate that they would prevent more piracy by writing their own that actually worked.
jarro_2783 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2005, 08:31 AM   #74
JezzyBall
Community Moderator
 
JezzyBall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Madtown, Wisconsin
Posts: 955
Send a message via MSN to JezzyBall
Default Re: To steam or not to steam....

Quote:
Originally posted by Disneyland:
Why is it that I have been using Steam for a full year now, and I've never had slow downloads, never had crashes -- in fact, never had a negative experience? I'm totally anal about web clients, tunnels and gaming services too. I would have removed it at the first sign of inconvenience. I have, quite literally, been 100% pleased with the functionality of Steam. I agree that it could use a more appealing skin set, but otherwise it does everything I need. As for not being able to play single player content when offline: the integrity of the product's security checks through Steam are crucial, irrespective of the type of gaming you intend to do. I'm totally fine with having to run Steam (initially) for a Valve game start-up.

How odd that a small group of people would be so vocally negative about Steam when millions of players are using it to connect to rousing games of CS: Source and HL2: Deathmatch every night, without problem nor complaint. Surely with games this huge and popular, a service's failings (i.e., your claims of Steam's incompetence) would be an enormous issue. Why am I not seeing it in the headlines? Why is Steam still successful and trusted? Why is Ritual going to be using Steam?

Because it works, obviously. Because Ritual trusts in the credibility and integrity of the service. Because Valve has offered to foster independent developers by publishing their works directly to players' homes and indie developers can enjoy unheard of royalty benefits and creative control. And because Ritual will help to encourage other idie developers to try new publishing methods. All it takes is one big hit and the floodgates will open. SiN Episodes is that hit.

Jesus, people.
[censored] Amen. I'm going to Disneyland!!!!!
JezzyBall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2005, 10:47 AM   #75
Michael_Russell
Roaming QA Ronin
 
Michael_Russell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 887
Default CDS not easy...

Quote:
Originally posted by jarro_2783:
I'm not a little script kiddie, and I know more about business sense than you think. All you have to do is set up the system and make sure the servers stay up, after that you can just leave it.
I'm not even saying steam is such a bad thing in itself, it has it's issues because it was badly written, but it would do the job. The main thing is that it is so easy to pirate that they would prevent more piracy by writing their own that actually worked.
Short answer, no, it's not that simple.

Content distribution systems are incredibly difficult to get right. Once you make something like that publicly available, your workload and responsibility goes up significantly. To do what you propose, we would need to, at minimum...

[breathe in]

...write a client that allows the user to download content from a secured server, allow secure logins, hire customer service representatives to help with lost and stolen logins and login problems, prevent reverse-engineering tools such as SoftICE from running, maintain security on the servers, allow patches to be distributed from the same server in the smallest form factor possible, intercept calls to the file system from applications launched via the interface, either decrypt files on the fly or use a server call to verify the user has access to the file in question, load-balance these server calls across a server farm, keep data on all of these servers in sync so that a valid call won't fail, incorporate some sort of piracy detection mechanism, integrate some sort of multiplayer cheat detection mechanism, create a secure payment system that follows all applicable local, regional, state, national and international laws, dedicate developers to maintaining the client and updating it with fixes and workarounds as hackers find ways around the system, maintain security on personally identifiable information, hire additional system administrators to constantly monitor the system for attacks, purchase several sets of redundant servers, pay to co-locate these servers at various geographical locations as well as on major Internet backbones, pay for the bandwidth used by these servers, try to ensure that a DDoS attack couldn't stop our users from using the software, add enhanced anti-intrusion software to the servers themselves to detect local point-of-presence attacks by server-room employees who have a personal grudge against us because they had to wait 40 minutes to load level 1 of SiN eight years ago, and after all that, hope we have enough money left to actually write a game.

[whew...]

As hard as it is to write a content distribution system, it's even harder to write a decent anti-piracy system. There are reasons that most developers use off-the-shelf copy protection. If given a choice between focusing on making the game fun and making the game copy-proof, most developers will choose to focus on making the game fun, because being copy-proof only helps if your product is one people would actually buy.

That's what we're doing. We're focusing on making this game the best possible game we can make. You may think that all of the above is simple to handle, but every moment that we focus on any of the above is a moment that we aren't polishing the hell out of this game.

Anyway, this is my last post on the matter. My efforts are better spent making sure that our games knock your socks off, so that's what I'm going to do.
Michael_Russell is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.