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Old 08-19-2001, 02:59 AM   #1
STATIC3D
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Default Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

I know the title of this post probably already got some people hot under the collar...how dare you blasphemy id like that...hehe.

Anywho, I think there are some things that may hurt DooM3 and thought what better place to, as Linda Richmond would say, "talk amougnst yourselves...discuss" :}

With id's trackrecord of late being technology over actual "game" development, including the outsorcing of (future releases) Return to Castle Wolfenstien and Quake4, AND, the fact that some of the original people involved in creating what made doom into DooM, do they have enuff of the "right stuff" still in-house to create a DooM game again?

(my thoughts...I think ANY game company can focus, if they will, on the development of a "game", as long as they do focus on the game and it's play features AT LEAST as much as (hopefully more than) they focus on the technology of that drives the game. Many companies have come up with cool technology, but an A$$ of a game. It's a matter of gameplay development and getting the right kind of people in place for the development.)


Seeing that today's "TOP" game sales are CONSISTANLY for ones that do NOT require the latest and greatest hardware, AND, that a GeForce 3 (still just under $300) is only expected to get 30 FPS in DooM3, is id overstepping the market by too much?

(my thoughts...I think id wants (or is trying) to regain some of their past glory with this game. Unfortunately, by overshooting the current market by so much, I think they will find themselves appealing to more of the "hardcore" audience and game sales will be less than hoped for. Remember, even thou Quake COULD be played in 3D, a 3D video card was not REQUIRED. If id truely believes everyone will run out and purchase new equipment JUST to play DooM3, then they deserve to get what comes to them via lower game sales.)


It has been said that DooM3 will be a more story driven type of game than the first two incarnations...due, in part, to the fact that the new game engine will not be able to support LOTS and LOTS of creatures on the screen at once. Is this change going to help (thru evolution of the game series) or hurt (thru changing what people loved so much about the first two games) this latest version?

(my thoughts...again, I think people, as creatures of habit, are not going to like the changes to their beloved DooM. This sort of thing happens in a LOT of creative industries. If a company has a HOT product, and tries to follow it up with a new version...they are usually hit with "it's too much like the first one, just more of the same", or, "it's too different from the first one"...sort of a damned if you do, and damned if you don't kind of thing. When it comes to DooM3, I think id is going to suffer the latter of the two. Too many people have played the first two games and LOVE them for what they are/were...complete and utter chaos (yeah, scream and twitch gaming). They LOVE their DooM and won't want to see it changed too much. Unfortunately, I think this "story line" driven gameplay, in combination with the increased hardware requirements to even play the game, are going to hurt DooM3 more than help it. I think a lot of people are going to view it like the american Godzilla film...well it was called Godzilla, and had a big lizard, but it was no GODZILLA.)


Knowing that hardcore gamers "love their eye-candy", is id just trying to appeal to that market and hoping the rest of the market will follow, or, is id just trying to make a fun game that happens to push the HELL out of the hardware requirements?

(my thoughs...eye-candy does NOT make a game. There have been plenty of "pretty" games that didn't do squat in sales due to the fact that THE GAME SUCKED! While Quake3 did have some interesting eye-candy features, one of the negative things most often mentioned about the game was it's limited gameplay. It was designed mainly for DM gameplay, well, unless you count the "addition" of CTF just before it's release. Not to start a flame thing, but, keep in-an-open-mind that "gameplay" was one of the strong positive points most often mentioned about UT, which DID (in # of copies sold) outsell Q3. I think id has missed one of the marks recently with their idea of what makes a great game. Yes, DooM was a visually appealing game, but, it was the gameplay (the FUN factor) that kept us coming back...NOT the eye-candy. I can see the hardcore community supporting this sort of thing, but, I don't see the majority of gamers willing to accept it when the "upgrade" just to play the game will be so costly. Even the hardcore community, with their love of eye-candy, may have a hard time accepting what DooM3 brings to the table in terms of gameplay...as mentioned in the previous point.)

OK, your turn...watcha think?
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Old 08-19-2001, 05:44 AM   #2
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

.....i heard in an interview with carmack that the gameplay would be like half-lifes...I wouldn't expect the game to be released on pc..news at www.videogames.com said that only x-box is suitable to handle doom3..so maybe it will only be released on that system....look at the specs for a new game like MAX PAYNE, then think of what the specs will be for DNF and wolfenstein..If your comp can hardly handle that then you have no chance of running Doom3.(me for example)...I think that ID will be stepping too far forward for what people can support right now. I'm quessing that Doom3 will be very popular but won't make many sales because of its high standards.
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Old 08-19-2001, 05:53 AM   #3
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

i talk to much
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Old 08-19-2001, 10:45 AM   #4
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

I don't know if Doom 3 is gonna be good but one of the things I always loved about Doom and Doom 2 was simply the feeling you got turning a corner, shotgun in hand and you find a horde of 40 imps in between you and a switch or a key. That kind of thing is what made me enjoy it and I personally love Serious Sam for that same reason. Hordes of Enemies, Good weapons, Decent challenge = Fun!

I think one big flaw in the current games market is that alot of the more mainstream gamers will buy a game because of looks so the people making the games focus more on the technology side of the game than the fun side of the game. This dosen't really make games worth it since we not only need better hardware to run the game acceptably, but also even with great hardware, all detail on max with 60fps we simply will not get anymore out of the game. Sure we might think for a second how nice something looks, but that seems more of a flaw than anything else. If we have the time to think how good something looks then the game simply isn't involving enough.

If the current specs for Doom3 are correct then I think ID are screwed plain and simple. I generally try and have a good computer, I can run Max Payne with high detail on almost everything, but there's no way in hell I'm shelling out for a geforce 3 just so I can see if I like a game.
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Old 08-19-2001, 10:14 PM   #5
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

i hear ya!
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Old 08-20-2001, 02:01 AM   #6
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

Static, can you cut down your posts so the people short on time/patience can read them?

Thank You [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 08-20-2001, 03:40 AM   #7
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

I'm sorry your Mtv quick cut, Blip-vert, scream and twitch gaming affected level of concentration won't allow you to handle such L-O-N-G posts...so much for War and Peace huh?...

PS: 10 points to the one(s) who remember where the Blip-vert reference is from. :}~~~
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Old 08-20-2001, 05:16 PM   #8
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

See, that was nice and short...YAY Paraphrasing is good, good for mankind I say.


Max Headroom

[ August 20, 2001: Message edited by: Smokey [UPS] ]
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Old 08-20-2001, 05:43 PM   #9
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

and the name of the track by art of noise in which max appeared?
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Old 08-20-2001, 07:43 PM   #10
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

Paranoimia
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Old 08-21-2001, 03:14 AM   #11
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

and how max got his name ?
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Old 08-21-2001, 03:27 AM   #12
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

If you wanna hear what I think, I think that you need to spend less time writing long essays on videogames and substitute your free time with something more useful.
Just a thought, anyway...

If it's about Doom 3, then I think it'll make big bucks since Doom has huge popularity and will become a target of news crews on the subject of "violence in the media" which will result the game becoming a much larger "industry" (as John Romero put it) than Quake. Look at Mortal Kombat, for instance.
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Old 08-21-2001, 08:20 PM   #13
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

a) DOOM 3 will sell a ton of games by name alone, whether or not it runs well or is any good.

b) I believe what I've read elsewhere, that by the time the game is released, many people will have computers powerfull enough to run it decently on the lower detail settings, so that won't be as much of an issue as it's being made out to be.

c) WAKE UP, PEOPLE! id is a game engine company now, and makes most of it's money licensing it's engine to others, so OF COURSE they're going to focus on looks more than they focus on gameplay.

d) In conclusion, the game will sell well and have half-decent gameplay, the engine will bring in even more money than game sales, Carmack will become even richer and more renowned as an engine programer, and people will forget about this debate ever happening because id will be announcing an expansion pack that you have to pay for, and several new continuations of their franchises programed by other companies.
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Old 08-21-2001, 11:23 PM   #14
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

"a)..."
I think people are actually starting to get tired games NOT running on their systems and are beginning to check system requirements a "little" bit more than in the past. If they do, then DooM3 WILL lose out on sales they would have gained in the past due to un-educated buyers.

"b)..."
Most people NOW don't have computers that can properly run some of today's "hot" 3D titles (thus the reason so many of the top selling games don't require a 3D card). With the increase in expense required to run DooM3 even on it's lowest settings (which from what I read is gonna be a GeForce3 @ 30 fps) those same people that can't run today's games probably won't be able to run tomorrow's games either.

"c)..."
An article I read said the amount of money made by most companies that license an engine is actually made from the games they create using the engine, not thru licenses. But then again, we are talking about id here...hehe.

The only problem I see with this is, if the PC gaming industry continues to go the direction it is leaning now, there will be less and less room for "mistakes". If a company knows the DooM3 engine looks great but will not run on enuff systems, they may take a pass on it...as in, eye-candy does NOT make a game (or game sales always).

"d)..."
-sell well...maybe
-half-decent gameplay...possibly, but slower, not in classic DooM style.
-Carmack richer...definitely.
-expansion pack...lmao (like they didn't learn their lesson from Team Arena).

One thing makes me wonder...could the changes in the DooM3 game be as much a part of the engine/hardware limitation(s) as it is id wanting to "change" their standard gameplay type (something that brought on most of the negative comments about Q3...not enuff of a stretch)?
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Old 08-22-2001, 07:42 PM   #15
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

Ranger, I'm guessing...Maximum Headroom needed for some sort of automobile? If you wear the "item" he wore to produce the visual of a computer generated character, it would then give him maximum headroom, or lack their of.
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Old 08-23-2001, 01:10 AM   #16
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

thats what I think too(referring to STATIC) [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 08-23-2001, 06:05 PM   #17
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

From what I remember (and its a little sketchy) the guy that became Max was attacked/shot/mugged and the last thing he saw was the sign "Max Headroom" in some kind of underground car park as he was lying on the ground.

I think [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
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Old 08-25-2001, 02:13 PM   #18
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

I see...... [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 08-26-2001, 01:47 AM   #19
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

You are pretty close Ranger...the orignal 20 minute film (that later became a short lived TV series) had Matt Frewer's character, a one-man TV camera man/field journalist, out on assignment doing an investigation.

He ended up being being chased by someone and was on a motorcycle in a parking garage. As he was just about to leave the garage, he somehow crashed. While flying thru the air, the last thing he saw (and smashed into) was a sign that said "Max (or maximum) Headroom" (as in low clearance when leaving the garage).

Since they thought he was going to die, the brain info from Matt Frewer's character was downloaded by the "whizkid" of the show, trying to save whatever "hot tip/stuff" he had found during his reporting. The brain info was put into the AI the "whizkid" had been working on...and it started where Matt's character left off...mmm...mmmaaaa...mmmmaaxxxx....maxx headroom :}

Please don't ask why (or how) I remember all of this..hehe.

The movie, and TV show, was pretty kul to watch. It was set in the future where second by second TV ratings were all that mattered to the stations...not unlike now...lol. Too bad they marketed to death the Max character. :{
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Old 08-26-2001, 05:40 AM   #20
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

Well remembered static, I knew it was definately the sign that gave him his name but couldn't remember exactly why it was the last thing he saw [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
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Old 09-06-2001, 02:16 PM   #21
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

Here's another blasphemous statement:

Doom's been remade already and it's called Serious Sam.
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Old 09-06-2001, 08:10 PM   #22
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

serious sam isn't scary though.
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Old 09-07-2001, 11:28 PM   #23
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

Doom was scary?
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Old 09-08-2001, 09:51 PM   #24
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

in my opinion DOOM64 was very scary.
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Old 09-09-2001, 05:47 AM   #25
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Default Re: Thoughts on why DooM3, or will it(?), suck...

I didn't like serious sam, yes it was nice from a nostalgia point of view. It recreated a lot of the Doom feeling for me but it just seemed like I was going through the motions.

I'm not saying D3 will be any better but hopefully the recent advancements in single player storylines will show iD that they cannot get away with (get key, find door)
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