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Old 01-25-2003, 10:12 PM   #1
The_Squeeze
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Default Hi All, Some suggestions for CS:CZ

Hi Guys,

Came to look at what is going on with CS:CZ and am actually surprised to see that there are not some 10000 random posts like most places that cover this topic and that some of you guys at ritual actually post feedback. LOL. Refreshing to say the least.

But before I post my ideas, and to not make it look like I have no clue what I am talking about, or that I am some random noobie. [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img] . Just wanted to say I have been playing games a LONG time, have been playing cs for past 3.5 years (since the early betas) have gone to CPL, etc., try to keep up to date on whats going on and realize that this game is all about one thing. FUN.

Have tried to read a lot of what has been posted here. So please forgive me if some of the stuff I suggest has been posted or covered already. From what I have seen so far, looks pretty good.

Some of the questions and comments I do have are.

Will you be allowed to pick different skins for multiplayer, if so how many, or will there be just a few premade ones to choose from like there are now. I know Gearbox was making this somewhat of a big push by making there being a lot of choices too work from (according to them) but have not seen anything said since the change over.

How many more new weapons (saw the info on the interesting new equipment like camera, blowtorch,etc.) are you guys going to be adding? Besides what I have seen mentioned already in your FAQ, the FAMAS, Galil, and RS, (Which are currently being played in the BETA at the moment, and based on my playing them are all pretty cool additions).

Will you guys be modifying any of the current weapons or equipment at all? I sure hope so. Some of them are just plain pitiful or useless. I will go down the list and give you what I am talking about. Even though I could go on a long rant on most of them will try to keep it brief [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Glock : Have been playing the beta the last few days and like the way it handles, especially with the slight increase in damage. Hope this stays that way.

USP: Have always like this gun but dont like the fact that its not as accurate as it use to be, and based on how it is now being used against the new glock, definitely puts the CTs at somewhat of a disadvantage, would not have to change the damage would be nice if it was a bit more accurate though. Like it was in prior versions.

SIG Pistol: Do not know what to say about this besides the fact that its suppose to be a pistol between the USP and Deagle, and its almost never used. While the CTs get the USP for free and you can buy the deagle (which costs a little more and is far more effective.) I honestly do not see much use for this gun unless some kind of addition was given to it. Like perhaps wall/door penetrating power like the Deagle but to a lesser extent for example or a cheaper price.

Deagle: Definitely fun gun to have, only beef I have is I wish it was a bit more accurate.

5-7: Like this gun too, but due to it being more expensive then the Deagle, it is seldom used, and not really worth the price.

Duals: LOL. Good for a wow that's cool factor when first time playing it, but once you play it, pretty much useless gun. Only thing I can see it being used more if it was given more power.

Shotguns: Out of all the gun categories that need improvements this is the top one outside of the auto-sniper rifles that needs major help.

Pump Shotty: Like the damage this one does, but everyone knows if you do not kill someone with the first shot, due to its slow action pump, you are as good as dead against an average user with a submachine gun or rifle. Hence why its rarely used. Would be nice if it was more powerful, and would kill more often in one shot, or better yet, faster pump action.

Auto-Shotty: Fun gun to use but 8 times out of ten you will lose to a rifle. Would be nice if it was a bit more powerful or less expensive. 3000 is way too much for what you get. Especially since an AK costs less and a Carbine costs a bit more. Not even counting the new rifles.

Pancor Jackhammer: Haha, this is my idea of a good shotgun. Was used in Max Payne and was actually my favorite gun to use. Would be nice to have a shotgun that people actually WANTED to use.
www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/1700/1732.htm

Submachine Guns: Pretty much a good category (except for one glaring example) considering where it fits in the CS world.

MP5- Fine gun for price and what you get. Do wish it was a bit more powerful or more consistent since I have seen on some servers (quite too often) where you get feedback on the amount of hits and damage you do. Where I have hit someone 8 or 9 times with MP5 and still have not killed them and that includes headshots!

Mac10- Fun gun to use once in a while but considering that it costs almost as much as an MP5 and is not as accurate. Rarely used. Only thing I can see that would make this fun is if you could use two of them for a slight increase in price. Now that would be fun [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Ump- Synonymous with useless. Out of all the guns there are this one is right up there in total neglect and usefulness. This one definitely needs help. More bullets? More punch? A lot cheaper? Dont know but definitely something.

temp- Cute gun. Would be nicer if it was perhaps even more quiet or more powerful, but unless something changes, I see this as being used even less that it is now.

P90- I like this gun and have aways wished that you could right click and have a red laser sight come out of that red dot in the front. Now that would be fun [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Rifles: Most popular category of all obviously and there are some new additions to it which address some problems. However there are a few rifles which challenge the UMP for playtime.

Galil - Definitely great weapon especially for the price.

FAMAS - Nice to finally see a decent rifle that does not cost so much for CTs. Did wish it would carry more than 25 bullets.

AK- Uber powerful and fun gun to use. Wish it had a slightly tighter spray pattern since it looks like the Galil puts it to shame in that category.

Carbine-Great weapon and probably best weapon on CT side. Wish the silencer made it a little more silent but other than that would not change much.

Scout: Due to the addition of the new weapons wish it was a bit cheaper to use than it already is now. Since most people will flock to the FAMAS or Galil instead, due to both being a lot cheaper.

AWP: Love this weapon and would keep it the same as it is now.

Auto Sniper Rifles: Will lump the ones for both Ts and CTs together since they are basically the same (useless). Next to the ump these two guns need help. Since you pay almost 6 grand, think you would get something a bit more powerful or accurate since an awper or even a decent scout user puts these both to shame. Maybe make them silent or a hella of a lot cheaper? Definitely needs something for these 2 guns. Considering you dont even remotely get what you pay for.

Heavy Machine Guns and the Para: Now I know Gearbox was going to add the M60 but have heard nothing from this camp yet on whether or not there will be a new one. Would be nice though to have a bit more variety in this category than just the straight Para. Which is fun to use, but very expensive and not as powerful as it should be.

Equipment: I like all the new additions I hear you guys working on, so hopefully it will be as cool as it sounds. Have not heard whether or not you will be adding molotov cocktail or chemical grenades but would be cool if something along those lines were added if not those particular weapons.

HE Grenades: Biggest beef I got about this weapon is the fact that you can be in a room away and have 2 solid walls between you and the explosion point and you can still get hit and die as though it exploded right near you. Would be nice if this weapon did not ignore walls and roofs, but better yet did even more damage in enclosed areas like small rooms etc.

Flash: Have always wondered why the flash only blinds you. If anyone has ever seen one in action you know that not only does it blind you but sounds like an m80 exploded right by your ear. Would be nice if in addition to blinding you it also deafened you for a bit. Would definitely add a fun element and greater tactical element to their use.

Smokes: All I have to say is. I love the way the new smokes are handled in the BETA. Definitely hope it stays that way in final release in CZ.

Riot Shield: Defnitely cool item. I think it will have a bigger impact than most people think.

Nightvision Goggles: The fact that anyone can adjust their gamma now makes this item virtually useless. Would be nice if it were instead thermal goggles, and had the ability to somewhat see though smoke (especially considering the new smoke nades). Now that would be an item of use.

Well thats all I got for now. Will maybe post more later but hopefully this will help for now and Good Luck Ritual. [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]
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Old 01-26-2003, 01:17 AM   #2
happy_cravings
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Default Re: Hi All, Some suggestions for CS:CZ

LOL!...To be honest man, I think your idea of the modifying guns is pure junk. FFS man, all you want to do to the original Counter-Strike/Condition Zero is boost up the power of every gun, make it more accurate blah blah blah...oh man, the guns are fine the way they are(besides a few [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] ). If your ideas were even used omg all the guns will be the same,same power+ good accuracy, the game won't even be called Counter-Strike, more like Simple-Strike. Sorry if I was a bit rude [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] man but I dont think those gun modifications will happen [img]/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img], EVER! [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
Just remember some ppl don't want the guns to change the way u do, some ppl like getting the fluky headshots that MAC10 (not UZI, thats in what they call it in GTAIII e.t.c) can do, this is a good quality of the MAC10 that ppl love [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] , I know I do [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
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Old 01-26-2003, 12:41 PM   #3
The_Squeeze
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Default Re: Hi All, Some suggestions for CS:CZ

heh..thx for the input but I beg to differ. Most people I know that play this game which is quite a few think along these lines, and you can pretty much play any game of cs now and see what I have mentioned to be as true. A slight increase in power to say the temp (as one example) would hardly make it the same gun as say a AK47 or even one of the new rifles. So I dont think simple strike would suffice. LOL [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] Would be nice to play the game and actually have a little more to choose from then just which rifle you are going to use, (the RS for Cts will help along these lines a bit now) and I guarantee you 2 Mac10s akimbo would be hella of a lot more popular then just the single one is now. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

And as to them not changing any of the guns. Would not be too sure about that crave they are already changing the glock in the beta and it is definitely a much better gun to use now, and its been a while since they touched that one, and a lot people love the change they made there.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 01-26-2003, 08:48 PM   #4
Castle
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Default Re: Hi All, Some suggestions for CS:CZ

Woah thats a huge post there man

Keep in mind that one of the things I feel that we shouldnt do is make huge sweeping changes to counter strike multiplayer. Im even against changing the weapons for the single player game also. In my opinion I already feel the game is pretty damn fun as it is right now and I also feel that how the weapons are set up goes deeper into the mechanics of counter strikes game play than I may ever truly comprehend. In other words if we went in and made every single gun more powerful then it wouldnt be counter strike anymore. I imagine we could risk ruining everything about what counter strike is and why people play it. I for one DO NOT want to go down in history as one of the people who ruined CS. I am personaly against US making any changes at all to the core mechanics of counter strike.
Can you blame me?
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Old 01-26-2003, 08:57 PM   #5
happy_cravings
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Default Re: Hi All, Some suggestions for CS:CZ

Woo Hoo, your the man Castle [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
LOL! 2 against 1 [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
Bad Luck The_Squeeze [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
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Old 01-27-2003, 11:10 AM   #6
The_Squeeze
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Default Re: Hi All, Some suggestions for CS:CZ

heh...Castle, thx for reply. That brief (LOL) list I compiled was I know for the most part more a possible wish list based on almost 3 in a half years of playing this game, and I know you guys realize that you are working on the hottest game around, and dont want to do anything to mess it up. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] I will be honest though, I think even if you guys went on a mission to mess it up it would be really, really hard to do. LOL. Its probably going to take a game that is a "CS-Killer" to knock it out and I do not see that coming for a long time.

Seriously though, on that list I made. Would be nice if some of the more glaring problems were changed some. Like the Ump,Duals,Auto-Sniper Rifles, and lack of variety for the shotguns and machine guns, nightvision goggles and maybe the tweaks I mentioned to the nades. I am pretty confident the community wouldnt knock you down if you guys made a faithful change in these small areas. I remember when I talked to Randy Pitchfork at an event about this. He basically told me the same thing, that for the core weapons they would never,ever change. But as you can see, just the slight change to the glock and the smoke nade recently in the BETA has been greatly received by the community. Doesn't hurt to test it out in Beta testing and see how it goes and change it later if need be, and if you all need a tester for some of this I will be glad to give you honest feedback in that category. [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img] Anyway, keep up the good work.

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Old 01-27-2003, 05:24 PM   #7
Castle
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Default Re: Hi All, Some suggestions for CS:CZ

I hear you man.
And the new changes have been generaly well recieved also.
though I have to admit that we seem to be pretty dead set on not changing weapon damage and such as far as I can tell. In a way im kind of glad its not for me to worry about anything other than just a damn good SP add on. (mainly because its a new type of play mode and it can work with out changing things that are already set up and working)
Its allways such a risk to change things around. I feel its just not worth the risk at all costs imo.
You know the saying "if its not broken dont fix it."
Im sure you must understand.
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Old 01-28-2003, 11:11 AM   #8
The_Squeeze
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Default Re: Hi All, Some suggestions for CS:CZ

Yes, understand the unique position you guys are in perfectly. Just wanted to let you all know, I do not think you will all burn in computer software developer hell ( LOL ) if you were to tweak areas that is pretty much universally despised upon or agreed upon as useless. However I hope you do not mind if I still call out suggestions from the peanut gallery, with prudence of course...hehe

[img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]
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Old 01-28-2003, 01:23 PM   #9
Castle
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Default Re: Hi All, Some suggestions for CS:CZ

hehe

Feel free to post whats on your mind. Ill read it almost for sure I know that.

If you really want to post some info Id personaly like to hear what you think is good for the layouts of multiplayer maps and/or why you think the layouts of some maps are good vs why some maps are bad ect. That kind of stuff I am calling shots on and Im allways willing to look into new ideas and opinions ect.
Sometimes I find myself wishing that I was still able to act like I was in the community and release beta maps for free and get peoples feedback on forums and stuff... Now everything is all complicated so its hard for me to release free stuff anymore! damn it!
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Old 01-28-2003, 01:35 PM   #10
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Default Re: Hi All, Some suggestions for CS:CZ

We want maps with lots of little hidey-holes with weapons etc. in and sniper spots. They should have several levels and several ways to get from one end of the map to the other. That's what i like anyway [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
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Old 01-28-2003, 02:32 PM   #11
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Default Re: Hi All, Some suggestions for CS:CZ

sounds more like quake and less like counter-strike. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

provide too many routes from one place to another and the level quickly becomes a confusing maze. simplicity drastically reduces the amount of time it takes to learn a new layout and increases the time spent enjoying the gameplay. In my opinion, it should never take more than a handful of rounds, or about 10-15 minutes, to become familiar with the layout in a counter-strike map.
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Old 01-28-2003, 02:47 PM   #12
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Default Re: Hi All, Some suggestions for CS:CZ

I know [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] I'm a Quake-type-game player really... [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]
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Old 01-28-2003, 03:29 PM   #13
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Default Re: Hi All, Some suggestions for CS:CZ

As a n00b mapper I keep trying to work out why de_dust is just so popular. This is because (as in most CS maps) there really is not much detail if you compare it to say some complex sof2 maps.

Is it in the simplicity that it does so well? De_dust has few routes and 2 main bottlenecks. (The long tunnel for snipers and the large crate tunnel)

If I can crack the formula I'll be able to make some cool maps! [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 01-28-2003, 04:24 PM   #14
Castle
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Default Re: Hi All, Some suggestions for CS:CZ

It seems with defuse maps the simple layouts that are set up so that both teams reach a center area at around the same time are most played.
Keep it really simple and make sure both teams are equaly far from a center area and place the second bomb zone away from the CT spawn. its also a good idea to make sure Ts can have about two choices to go and a special option to change their minds and go down the other way however it might be best to make sure that this path is close to one of the main battle areas otherwise people run in circles and get confused.
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Old 01-28-2003, 10:41 PM   #15
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Default Ritual to read plz, a suggestion

This is back to The_Squeeze's of sugestions for CS:CZ and CS. This idea just pop into my head and if I didn't think it was good i wouldn't if have took the time to write it up...
OK back to the idea...I reckon it will be a good idea to make it so the knife can be attached to some guns(not all the guns, but preferably the guns such as the AK-47 and Galil, maybe make it so its for the Terrorsists guns only), Not only will this idea be fun but I think it would balance the teams up a bit better. Where the CTs have the shields and the Ts can have the knife attach idea. And the CTs would be able to attach the knife, if they have a AK-47 or Galil, just like the Ts can pick up the CTs shield if dropped. Or this could be an advantage to Ts over the CTs M4A1 silencer.
This WOULDN'T be a big increase in the Terrorist's advantage though, but it definatly will be a small advantage to have this idea.
Plz give me your feedback Ritual. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]


A knife isn't attached to the AK yet but it "could" be [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

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Old 01-28-2003, 10:50 PM   #16
Castle
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Default Re: Hi All, Some suggestions for CS:CZ

This is an important thing to point out because I might not have been clear in my previous posts.
As far as I know Valve are the ones who are handling CS multiplayer.
Ritual is doing the single player. So we are not directly able to make any kind of changes at all to anything but the single player game. So to make changes to multiplayer it’s all up to valve. When I say “we” and “us” a lot I do mean Ritual but I mean it in a tone more like “In my opinion we most likely won’t be asking valve to change how much damage weapons do or make huge sweeping changes to the core mechanics of CS.”
And that’s also to be taken as my humble guess.
Anyway time to shut up. I have been pretty noisy lately.
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Old 01-29-2003, 12:34 PM   #17
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Default Re: Hi All, Some suggestions for CS:CZ

hehe..Castle

As to your map statements you earlier made you are pretty much right. Even though its kinda of hard for me to comment on a map without ever seeing it. The most popular maps are the de_ ones, then followed by cs_ , and as_. You and kanaeda touched upon some of the right things that make these maps popular such as the multiple angle approach for the Ts and CTs to the bombsites. However would probably be wise to always have at least 3 or more paths to the bombsites for the Ts and CTs, with usually 3 or more major important choke points for the CTs or Ts (if cs_ map) too control and defend. As well as having the defending CT team spawn in one of the bombsites and the T team for cs_ maps spawn at the hostage area. Having too few paths to the bombsite or hostage site will only create maps that are huge one sided maps like siege, or prodigy. Dont get me wrong these maps are of course fun but neither one come close to rivaling the other more popular maps.

Also it seems that the simpler the map is, usually the better response it gets. I believe that even though big huge maps can be fun, people dont like to be confused too much, and they usually dont receive as favorable impressions as more simpler ones. Maps like piranesi, thunder and torn come to mind in this category.

The maps that seem to be the most well received are the ones with good action that can take place pretty fast, and that are not to complex in layout or design, with a few good places to camp, as well as a few good spots for snipers.

Another topic I think is important is dont make big multi-level maps! Unless the sound issue associated with them has been fixed. Biggest one that comes too mind is de_vertigo. Nothing can upset a decent player is more to think he hears a player coming right up to him based on sound, and it turns out its someone running on a floor above him. This is a real drawback to maps that have this feature.

Also I think another important decision to factor in, is too not focus too much on making a PERFECTLY balanced map. I know I hear this a lot in the community, but if you think about it for a second you will find it ironic and funny that the most popular maps around tend to favor at least one side somewhat by a decent margin over another. Not an overwhelming margin mind you liked I talked about earlier but a rather notable one none the less. Dust-Pro CT, Aztec-Pro CT, and Dust2- Pro T. Is balance and fairness important? yes. But dont make it the most important priority in a map.I know a lot of mappers try this and fail at the expense of fun. Fun should be the most important factor.


Like I mentioned before its kinda of hard to tell if a map will be well received or not without actually seeing it or playing it but hopefully this helps somewhat.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 01-31-2003, 02:20 AM   #18
Castle
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Default Re: Hi All, Some suggestions for CS:CZ

AH yes
I didn’t have a chance to respond to this post for awhile.
There are some huge freakin posts going these days. Maybe we should copy them and put them together and sell it as a book titled “what we do in our spare time”

Early on I found that complex multi layered layouts could some times agitate players to a point that they might start trash talking the level designer. Simple is the way to go for Defuse maps. Since I came from the quake 3 engine based tech in level design I constantly found myself accidentally adding too much at first. Then I would go back and take things out again later. I’m getting more into the groove now though.

I knew that if people had a certain type of sound card they could hear farther than most people in CS but I never knew that the foot step sounds would stay the same on multi floored layouts, though I already shunned the idea of doing huge multi floored layouts for other reasons. When I see levels like Italy and Dust I tend to think that is more along the lines of what people actually want to play and all though those levels have a small bit of over under fighting they are primarily flat. That’s the style I enjoy most myself.

You have a good point about the balancing of the levels though. I never did think about that. The only way to ever create a truly even level though is to make it symmetrical similar to the style of many quake CTF levels. I don’t see how you could pull that off exactly in CS though considering CTs and TS both have different objectives AND weapons. So yeah come to think about it there aren’t a whole lot of even CS maps out there. Breaking down CS I seem to quickly find that it’s almost a mystery on how they “balanced” the game at all. When I play I always feel like it’s a fair game so I imagine the work that went into making CS fun to play must have been by some very astute and dedicated individuals. The mod community is truly a dynamic force in modern gaming.

When it comes to hostage rescue levels I tend to see more complex layouts when compared to your basic defuse maps. Hostage Rescue seems to be more about allowing CTS to have lots of choices. The trick seems to be in balancing as many of those choices against what a skilled group of TS will be able to defend against effectively. One thing that I noted about cs_italy is that the number of choices the CTS can make steadily drops as they close in on the radius of the house. There might be about 4 ways to reach the house but you’re only left with the front door and possibly a window to choose between when you get there.

VIP levels puzzle me right now. I’m currently unhappy with tundra and oilrig to examine as examples of what a good VIP level should have. Either maps seem to have anything at all in common with each other. To me that might imply that no one has ever actually tapped into the full potential of the VIP game mode. All hostage levels have 4 hostages and all defuse levels have 2 bomb sites however I fail to see why tundra has 2 rescue zones rather than one rescue zone like oil rig. Both of these levels are more confusing and winding than anything I have seen in CS. Perhaps I need to look elsewhere to find out what really makes this mode function.

Anyway to end this GIANT DAMN POST
I would like to know if there are any truly hardcore mapping forums for CS maps where most of the people who post there have released a few good maps that people have played. Either that or maybe you could bring some people here. If I have time ill even check out peoples beta maps and stuff over the weekends if the screen shots look cool enough. It could be like the counter strike equivalent of the quake 3 world forums. I value that kind of feedback because it is what has got me to where I am today.
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Old 01-31-2003, 02:37 AM   #19
Castle
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Default Re: Ritual to read plz, a suggestion

uh
knife on the end of an AK.....

STAB people with your AK! [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

hehe
Personaly I like to switch to knife but that means im about to die or want to run fast anyway.
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Old 01-31-2003, 12:36 PM   #20
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Default Re: Hi All, Some suggestions for CS:CZ

“AH yes
I didn’t have a chance to respond to this post for awhile.
There are some huge freakin posts going these days. Maybe we should copy them and put them together and sell it as a book titled “what we do in our spare time””

HAHA. Yea, cant believe I have been typing this much as well. I will go ahead and start writing the book now. LOL

“Early on I found that complex multi layered layouts could some times agitate players to a point that they might start trash talking the level designer. Simple is the way to go for Defuse maps. “

Exactly.

“I knew that if people had a certain type of sound card they could hear farther than most people in CS but I never knew that the foot step sounds would stay the same on multi floored layouts, though I already shunned the idea of doing huge multi floored layouts for other reasons. When I see levels like Italy and Dust I tend to think that is more along the lines of what people actually want to play and all though those levels have a small bit of over under fighting they are primarily flat. That’s the style I enjoy most myself.”

Yes, I believe that good size multi-level maps COULD have some good fun, but I believe due to the problem with the sound at the moment. It is a real drawback for those maps that fall into this category. Though like you pointed out, some maps that are primarily flat with some multi level above and underground fighting tend to fare well, and are generally accepted as fun.

“You have a good point about the balancing of the levels though. I never did think about that. The only way to ever create a truly even level though is to make it symmetrical similar to the style of many quake CTF levels. I don’t see how you could pull that off exactly in CS though considering CTs and TS both have different objectives AND weapons. So yeah come to think about it there aren’t a whole lot of even CS maps out there. Breaking down CS I seem to quickly find that it’s almost a mystery on how they “balanced” the game at all. When I play I always feel like it’s a fair game so I imagine the work that went into making CS fun to play must have been by some very astute and dedicated individuals. The mod community is truly a dynamic force in modern gaming.”

Yea, out of all the maps I have played and look at (Which I lost count long ago. I got hundreds of megabytes worth of them). There has only been one that has been pretty much universally seen as being close to even and that has been de_nuke. Its pretty much the de facto map for championship games. As to the game and this mod overall I just think its seen as simply being a very fun game and it has pretty much met the one thing that all good games must be, and that is fun, fun, fun, and must the ability to suck the life and time out of you. LOL

“When it comes to hostage rescue levels I tend to see more complex layouts when compared to your basic defuse maps. Hostage Rescue seems to be more about allowing CTS to have lots of choices. The trick seems to be in balancing as many of those choices against what a skilled group of TS will be able to defend against effectively. One thing that I noted about cs_italy is that the number of choices the CTS can make steadily drops as they close in on the radius of the house. There might be about 4 ways to reach the house but you’re only left with the front door and possibly a window to choose between when you get there.”

Exactly. That map is actually hugely one sided to the T side. 5 dedicated Ts can lock it down again a group of CTs twice its size. This is one of the few maps I believe that is still hugely popular yet most people think is fair and fun to play. The only reason I think it is this way because a lot of times the Ts will leave the house and go out to meet the CTs. Would be kinda of funny to see 10 Ts inside that house and watch a few nades take them all out. So I think since most people on both sides like to fan out and attack on this map. It bypasses the illusion of being hugely one sided, and a huge camp fest like siege or assault.

“VIP levels puzzle me right now. I’m currently unhappy with tundra and oilrig to examine as examples of what a good VIP level should have. Either maps seem to have anything at all in common with each other. To me that might imply that no one has ever actually tapped into the full potential of the VIP game mode. All hostage levels have 4 hostages and all defuse levels have 2 bomb sites however I fail to see why tundra has 2 rescue zones rather than one rescue zone like oil rig. Both of these levels are more confusing and winding than anything I have seen in CS. Perhaps I need to look elsewhere to find out what really makes this mode function. “

OK, out of all the map types that have been created, you are right. This one pretty much bucks the trend in map design. However like you said, no one has really yet, ever tapped it to its full potential. Most mappers focus on the de or cs maps, and as to the layout of the maps. I believe the key ingredient is to have it where the CTs along with the VIP must drive forward through multiple layers of T ambush spots with lots of intense action taking place. I get asked all the time what is my favorite map ever, and without a doubt it would be Version 1 of cs_office. The intense action that took place on that map as CTs before they modified it to where its at today was absolutely intense, and a huge blast, and even though its a cs_ map, I loved that map and if you could make an as_ map like that, with that kind of action and gameplay, then it would be absolutely awesome.

[img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

Here also are the specs of what an as_ map are according to valve. This might help explain the one or two rescue points, and the general theme of as_ maps.


"Your map should be similar to a TFC hunted map in architecture. Have the Terrorists spawn not all in one group... spread them out. Also construct elevated sniper roosts where the T's will spawn. The T's will all be in hiding spots and roosts that a typical Assassin would be in (ready and waiting with his AWP to pick off that VIP). You'll want to make your map with plenty of open space. Remember, most Assassins will be snipers, so give them plenty of roosts and spots great for sniping. Maps should be relatively linear, with the VIP having to get from one end to the other. However, make sure you have alternate routes (not just one route), pehaps 2 routes is best. Click here for a diagram of an Assassination map that Gooseman has drafted up.
Make sure:
• Your map must have Terrorist spawns that are sniper roosts and hiding spots.
• CT's should have 13 spawns, T's should have 10 spawns
• Your map must have more than 1 route to the escapezone, vary it.
• Your map must have open spaces suitable for sniping.
• Your map must have at least one escape zone, preferably 2
• Your map should be similar to TFC hunted maps, but the gameplay is not all that similar.
• Your map must not have any entities from other modes of play in it, ie hostage_entitys.
• Your map must be fairly linear, but with a few different routes (perhaps 2).
• Your map may have a car or helicopter or something to denote escapezones.
• Your map must have the prefix As_. Example: As_Oilrig"

A couple of other maps you might want to take a look at. That I thought were fun are as_forest and as_highrise. Both of those were released in early betas but never made it to final release. I think as_forest did not make it because it was hard to counter the machine gun nests that were on it that the Ts used. Since the CTs could not buy sniper guns. (Always hated that part.) As to why highrise did not make it to final I am not sure, since a lot of people liked it at the time considering it was an as_ map.

“Anyway to end this GIANT DAMN POST
I would like to know if there are any truly hardcore mapping forums for CS maps where most of the people who post there have released a few good maps that people have played. Either that or maybe you could bring some people here. If I have time ill even check out peoples beta maps and stuff over the weekends if the screen shots look cool enough. It could be like the counter strike equivalent of the quake 3 world forums. I value that kind of feedback because it is what has got me to where I am today.”

Hehe…Here you go. I get asked a lot to look at maps and modify. I will cut and past a lot of the links for you below. This should help you. Please forgive if some of the links no longer work, and you might need to use a language translator for a few of them. Been a while since I weeded through all of them. 

General Valve Mapping Rules

http://www.counter-strike.net/mapping.html

Maps and Map Reviews

http://www.cscentral.com/ (Good map section)
http://www.cs-maps.jolt.co.uk
http://www.cs-maps.us/
http://www.cscentral.com/maps/
http://www.planethalflife.com/csmaps/archive.asp
http://www.counter-strike.de/mapreviews/alphabtype.php
http://www.counter-strike.de/mapreviews/special.php
http://www.lanmaniax.com
http://www.cszone.co.uk
http://www.clan00.de
http://www.csateam.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.counter-strike.com.fr
http://csnation.counter-strike.net/cs2d/cs2d.htm (Nice 2d layouts of the more common maps.)


Map packs

http://countermap.counter-strike.net/packs.html
http://www.cscentral.com/maps/mappacks/
http://www.counter-strike.de/mapreviews/mappacks.html


Mapper Resources

http://countermap.counter-strike.net/
http://www.forumplanet.com/counterst...m.asp?fid=4965 (Lots of mappers go here.)
http://csnation.counter-strike.net/barney/ (Maker of Inferno and Aztec to name a few)
http://www.planethalflife.com/davej/index.htm (Maker of Dust, Dust2)

Damn this is huge too.

LOL

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