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Old 04-27-2003, 05:15 PM   #1
happy_cravings
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Default CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

After reading this:

CSX & CZ

20 unique single-player missions, each with its own story and special gameplay features
7 different counter-terrorist groups
New T character: Drug Lord
New multiplayer weapon: M60 Machine Gun
New multiplayer ability: to attach a flashlight on any assault rifle or shotgun
New locations: Bank of Miami, Columbian jungle, Modesto crackhouse, cargo ship at sea, and high-rise rooftops with zip lines

CSX Only
CSX will offer all of the current CS material, the new Condition Zero content, and exclusive content including two weapons (Syringe and Machete), two solo missions, and at least five multiplayer maps
CSX exclusive graphical enhancements include 24-bit texture quality, improved lighting and particle effects, and new color schemes
Support for a widescreen aspect ratio and 480p progressive scan mode enhances the visuals and DD 5.1 provides an incredibly realistic soundscape
Geometry of levels will be altered to account for the loss of precision that comes with the controller-interface; focus on horizontally-oriented action
Valve will review submissions of custom mods and maps, and release approved content through Xbox Live
Hacks will be virtually eliminated from the closed gaming network that is Xbox Live; PKers and idlers will be automatically kicked from servers by Valve's anti-cheat software
Player limit undetermined, it will be 16 or 20 players depending on how net coding progresses
Planned support for clan spray tags

It got me really annoyed to see that Condition Zero on XBOX was going to look and be better than the PC Condition Zero.

I was just wondering will Ritual be releasing a Condition Zero, after the XBOX version, that uses the best graphics and etc but for computer. I want this game to look the best when I play it and playing it on the PC with the half-life engine just doesn't get my attention. I mean what qaulities just XBOX have that cant be implimented to the PC. Atless u can do Ritual is when u release the game have game options where PC players can choose the best partical effects so it COME UP to the standard with their computers. But I know is the reason why u had to use the Half-Life engine due to people having crummy old computers but what about those people out there with computers like a year old that canhandle much better graphics. Where as people playing counter-strike 3 yrs ago with thier crummy computers are starting to fade out of CS and the people startin today who have just brought a new computers are just gettin in to CS.

Think about the people Ritual, not how much money u make by selling the "meant to be" good game to people who can handle 3yr old graphics. God Dammit we want something New!!! I mean u cant even drive Vehicles and u still carry on using this engine, what have Ritual and Valve gotten up to this time!
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Old 04-27-2003, 06:08 PM   #2
hksdu
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

I hve to agree with this post. I can understand the marketing pressure from MS to have some exclusive content but why would the PC version not include the technical improvements since the current platforms available can match and surpass the quality of the xbox? I mean, you can pickup an MB, vid card and sound cards that support all of that.

While the general population may not upgrade to keep up with the times, you have to remember the doom, quake and everquest phenomenoms where people bought new or bad ass systems to play those games. 386 , pentiums, and voodoo cards were sold when those respective games came out. I suspect the same will be true if CS:CZ pushes the envelop and will get folks with less than Geforce 2 cards and crap sound cards to drop a few bux for an upgrade.

Please let there be an enhanced mode for those of us with enough horsepower to enjoy the technical achievements.
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Old 04-27-2003, 07:27 PM   #3
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

I know exactly what you are talking about! Mircosoft must have every thing exclusive for xbox! Don't worry though there a bunch of lying F***s! Remember splinter cell, only for xbox (Which I new wasnt true because in other magazines they showed pics for SC coming out in spring.) then it came out in the spring. What about metal gear solid 2: substance (Also showed in other magazines coming out.) and it came out for other consoles along with SC. So there you have it, since xbox lies, and really the comercials for xbox sould say exclusivly for xbox till spring, this might happen as well. Xbox has it till whenever then we get it. Im not 100% sure this will happen again, but they did it to us twice (Third times a charm.). One more thing, the PC is definitly capable of surpassing xbox. Think to yourself ritual and valve, what are you doing to your gamers spliting them up on other consoles!!
I dont think it's a very good idea.
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Personally, microsoft (or billgates whatever you think of it.) will take over the world. Right now im using their software, and so are you, and you, and you, and you!!!! Not that I don't like their software or anything, just i don't like it when they take it away from the majority of the people who play a very good video game. (Stick to your software, and away from my games!!!!!!!) [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] P.S: I have just upgraded my graphics card to a 64mb instead of a crappy 16mb card to play other games and to play CZ in a better graphic environment don't disappoint me! [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img]
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Old 04-28-2003, 08:53 AM   #4
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

To be honest I don't mind too much about these features.

Two new weapons on the Xbox versions, thats fine I don't mind that so much. But look at what weapons they are the Syringe and Machete. It's not like they are getting the OICW as a new weapon!

Then theres the updated graphics. Thats nothing much to fret over. So they get a few more graphical bells and whistles but thats nothing much really. Graphics don't make the game and shouldn't be the be all and end all.

Then there are the major problems that the XBox has.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Geometry of levels will be altered to account for the loss of precision that comes with the controller-interface; focus on horizontally-oriented action

[/ QUOTE ]

In other words the levels will be more horizontal than the PC ones. So the XBox users may have to miss out on some stunning vertical firefights and stick with horizontal ones. And lets face it, it wouldn't be CS unless you have CT's engaging T's that are above them on a balcony!

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Valve will review submissions of custom mods and maps, and release approved content through Xbox Live

[/ QUOTE ]

So they can get mods as well. But the important thing is they have to be submit to Valve. The XBox will never quite be as mod/map laden as the PC version could be. The XBox owners may miss out on some truely superb maps purely because they don't get submit or Valve doesn't think they'll work on the XBox with the controller. (I don't think we'll ever see an Oil-Rig level on the XBox unless it takes part on one floor. There would be too much vertical-oriented action.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Player limit undetermined, it will be 16 or 20 players depending on how net coding progresses

[/ QUOTE ]

So they won't be seeing those titanic 32 player games on XBox which is a shame because they have been the best CS games I've ever had!

And Finally!

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Planned support for clan spray tags

[/ QUOTE ]

But just Clan tags. None of the personal ones. (Like my anime one in DoD [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] ) You won't have a personal spray unless your in a clan. Which in some ways reduces the personality of the people your playing against. (Of course there won't be any porn sprays which is probably a good thing.......)

So I support Ritual in this and this news hasn't caused me to cancel my pre-order and run out and buy an XBox. I like to be able to play fan created stuff that I want to play. Rather than having a small amount of levels I could choose from. And on the graphics idea. Why don't you just wait for someone to release a graphics hack? Or you could go out and buy an XBox! And we haven't heard from Ritual so we don't know if that stuff will be in the PC version as well. (I thought the two weapons were also in the PC version!)
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Old 04-28-2003, 04:46 PM   #5
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

I have seen this game delayed so many times! [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img] Graphics are not the game your right, come on just to say hey guess what CZ is comin for the PC, and another thing we made it better for Xbox even though we know that all of you Pc players desirve it more. It does matter in the long run because I have waited long enough! Then to hear that all the good quality improved graphics are for F---ing Xbox come on! What kind of bull s--t is that! Ritual/ Valve why would you do this, it makes me mad just talking about it! You better come up with an idea or something, and see if valve will give the ok. All in all if you don't please me then the HL2 engine will, then they will probably make another CS as a mod for hL2. Half-Life 2 is ecpected to come out September 30th. The engine will most likely be better then anything we have ever seen for hl or CZ. As good or better then the Doom ||| engine possibly. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] O, not offending you but, I love the PORN sprays [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img] .
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Old 04-28-2003, 06:10 PM   #6
Mike Porter
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

I understand your frustration, however, we have to make the PC version backwards compatable to allow users to still use their older computers to play.

The X-Box doesn't already have a large (read massive on the PC) Counter-Strike user base to keep compatability with and therefore we are allowed a little more latitude when making decisions about enhancments.

You guys aren't getting a second rate product. You are getting the most product we could give you while allowing you to use your older machines to play the new content.

There are changes that are going to be made for the X-Box that change the dynamic of the game. For instance, because of the controller, it's a little more difficult to aim vertically, therefore the gameplay will be more horizontal. Not bad, just different.

Rest assured you will be getting great content and gameplay on either platform. We wouldn't allow it to be any other way.

Mike
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Old 04-28-2003, 09:59 PM   #7
hksdu
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

Mike said:

"You guys aren't getting a second rate product. You are getting the most product we could give you while allowing you to use your older machines to play the new content."

I understand this and yet this has been the SAME thinking for the 4-5 years. Now that HL2 and Doom 3 may be coming out THIS YEAR, how will these games affect the current users with older machines?

They update, buy new machines or just play CS. You guys are great at developing kick ass content yet I wish your producers or upper management would consider the group of users who has or will update their systems to keep up with the times and let them enjoy CS:CZ for more years to come instead of just six months post launch, then migrate over to the new games built on those engines.

Its like buying car with a different paint job with the same dated 4 - 5 year old suspension, engine, transmission and luxary when there are new models coming out that will perform better, look better and offer more bang for the buck. The only difference is that the development cost to code in OPTIONAL settings and include a high defination texture pack or assets for high end users are way cheaper than switching to a new base platform, engine and tranny layout for a car. Have the advanced settings activate based on a system test such as the one found in UT2K3. It would test your rig and suggesting a setting and yet, allow advanced users to kick the fidelity up.

Mike said:

"Rest assured you will be getting great content and gameplay on either platform. We wouldn't allow it to be any other way."

I have no doubt about that but I would like to keep playing CS beyond XMAS this year and not have that "cheap console port" feel after I've played new games based on more advanced engines. I know this since I'd just played Red Faction II PC at a friend's place over the weekend and it feels like playing a PSX port, let alone a PS2 port. It felt like a few step backwards compared to the first Red Faction.

PC gamers want to enjoy every moment to its fullest potential including DTS sound, advanced graphics and superb AI. After all many of us have paid for that privileged, otherwise we would be content with just console systems.
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Old 04-29-2003, 04:09 PM   #8
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

I thought about this yesterday night and then it dawned on me.

The XBOX in most cases will be hooked up to a television set with a max resolution of 1024x768 (probably 640x480 in most cases) with a very course dot pitch that actually negates the requirement for FSAA.

The PC usually has a monitor with a much finer dot pitch and most gamers are at 1024x768 these days with others like me running at 1600x1200 with FSAA.

The whole arguement for better texture quality and higher depth rendering mode is moot as the fidelity will be lost on the conventional XBOX setup when compared directly to a typical PC setup (GF2 class equipped and up).

I just want to see a comparison of a XBOX screenshot of CSX vs PC screenshot of CS:CZ on a conventional SVGA monitor setup (to negate the TV's fuzziness) with the same resolution (say 800x600) with max'ed out graphics on both systems on a similar map. That will tell us if this request was worth it in the first place as we all may have been duped by marketing rhetoric again.

Thanks for considering this and if the XBOX enchancements does make a difference, well, back to the frenzy again. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]
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Old 04-29-2003, 05:28 PM   #9
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

I have to thank you for responding, but can you ask valve, or if you already have it planned to have the graphics updated for a patch, or for people who can handle it. I really don't want my 64mb graphics card going to bed while playing CZ. I'm still getting it anyway, but I am concerned if I will be amazed with it. Well I really do like the work you have done, the new CZ model look kick ass, but it would be in my interest and others to see them used in a highly graphic environment. Updated graphics and effects would only make the game stonger and have a realistic feel. Maybe, (Said earlier.) an option for it to be turned on or off, updated by a patch or something that lets you use the updated graphics and effects. I'm sure most people agree with me graphics, visuals, what have you, the better they are the better the game looks. So far I like what I have seen in CZ, I still play 1.5 not 1.6, I'm waiting for Cz to get out of 1.5. If you can, it will only make the game better. Please let this idea not slip away hold on to it and at least in future patches or whatever, you add this in. If not, well then many will be disappointed. Thank you for responding, sorry about earlier I was a little bit too mad. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] By the way many people I have talked to in CS say they have a 128mb card and they still play CS. So there some proof for you that most people in CS have better cards, or if you want to see it for your self ask some one who plays CS. Not garanteed the first person you go up to has one, but most of the peaople do. I suggest a survey of what peaople have in 1.5/1.6.
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Old 04-29-2003, 11:52 PM   #10
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

I haven't been involved in the development of CS:CZ from the beginning and won't be until May 1st (yah, couple days now!). What I mean to say is that I do not know what discussions the other guys may have had related to graphics technologies for CS:CZ on PC.

With that said, here's my thinking on why ValveSoftware (owners of CounterStrike property) would choose to make CS:CZ use the original Half-Life graphics engine instead of a new one. CS:CZ is a single player game that targets two kinds of customers. Those who lack an internet connection and those who do have one, but are hesitant to try CounterStrike multiplayer for whatever reasons.

I think ValveSoftware would love to use CS:CZ as a stepping stone for people who are afraid to jump into a random Internet game for CounterStrike. Therefore there needs to be an obvious connection between CS: CZ and CounterStrike such as the way they game feels and looks. One way to do that is to use the exact same graphics engine. If CS:CZ used a more recent graphics engine, players who took the leap from Single Player CS:CZ to CounterStrike multiplayer would be in for a disappointing shock when they see the lower graphical capabilities of the Half-Life enigne.

You might ask why it's so important for ValveSoftware to make CS:CZ a bridge for players to enter the CounterStrike game. It's because CounterStrike is ValveSoftware's number one or number two product in sales (Half-Life) is the other. ValveSoftware is looking for ways to attract more customers to the CounterStrike game and CS:CZ is a great way to do it.

Someone said, why not make a patch to allow for updated graphics, maybe you mean higher resolution textures which might be possible, not really sure. Or maybe you meant shaders and sun flares and other graphical changes to the engine to make it look more like UT2k3 or DOOM III. In order to do that gamers would have to download vast amounts of data from .exe files, .dll's, models, animation files and many megs of textures that use bump maps, specular maps, and so on. That is too many megabytes of data to download at one time I think just to get a few graphical bells and whistles when it's really the game play you are focused on when playing.
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Old 05-01-2003, 01:13 AM   #11
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

Brushbaron said:

... here's my thinking on why ValveSoftware (owners of CounterStrike property) would choose to make CS:CZ use the original Half-Life graphics engine instead of a new one. .. I think ValveSoftware would love to use CS:CZ as a stepping stone for people who are afraid to jump into a random Internet game for CounterStrike. Therefore there needs to be an obvious connection between CS: CZ and CounterStrike such as the way they game feels and looks. One way to do that is to use the exact same graphics engine. If CS:CZ used a more recent graphics engine, players who took the leap from Single Player CS:CZ to CounterStrike multiplayer would be in for a disappointing shock when they see the lower graphical capabilities of the Half-Life engine.

---

Your logic is wrong there buddy. The owners of CS:CZ (a standalone game with CS included) will see CS as... well CS:CZ , since the models, textures, guns, sound and etc... will be recycled into CS. The only discrepancy the CS:CZ customer will see is when they load those old CS maps (which may be enhanced right now or the same as CS BETA 1.6) or by the use of custom maps and custom models. Nowadays, community quality is at or near commercial quality - I can give examples to prove this, but old add-ons are old and haven't been updated so that may be where the problem comes from.

Also, why would ritual or valve sell a standalone game with two different graphics set for single and multiplayer besides performance reasons? Wouldn't the minimum requirements for CS:CZ suffice for multiplayer or would there be two different requirements for single and multiplay? Last time I checked, Medal of Honor and Return of Wolfestein (single and multiplay games) used the same art assets and allowed 2 different configs to the gameplay modes.

If you read through this thread, no-one was asking for a PC engine that competes with Doom 3, UT2K3 or other engines currently released or being built. We want to be on PAR with the XBOX since the current PC is technically CAPABLE of everything the XBOX can. I made that example to cite how the XBOX will compete with PC Doom 3 and since its being built anyways and may have similar launch times, yet how much more resources would it take to re-code the enhancement for the PC, both being developed within MS Visual Studio or whatever cross platform IDE and asset management software you guys are using. The stuff is there already.

I know the masses aren't near the capabilities of the xbox since most are lacking GPUs or DTS sound output at that level, but all you need to do is look into your own development machines and tell me you're not knocking your head against the wall for making a game that has yet to flex your systems. SMP, fast video, loads of ram is one thing during development, but hey, doesn't it suck that a $200 console in your rec room whoops on all of your 2-4K coding machines with LAN and T1 access to the net?

The valve survey is also VERY old. It is over a year old and should not be the one to measure current and future standards. That thing needs to be updated on a quarterly bases to gauge the technical trends of PC gamers.

The most logical reason I believe for the PC to not support the XBOX enhancements is that you guys are in crunch mode, debugging your beta and getting ready for Gold since the last known release date is in May. Iím sure it is hard to code in all that within a time frame, but damnÖ when the XBOX version rolls out, and when Valve releases CS 1.8 patch along with the HL patch, it sure would be nice if those enhancements are out there for us.

Brushbaron said:

Someone said, why not make a patch to allow for updated graphics, maybe you mean higher resolution textures which might be possible, not really sure. Ö In order to do that gamers would have to download vast amounts of data from .exe files, .dll's, models, animation files and many megs of textures that use bump maps, specular maps, and so on. That is too many megabytes of data to download at one time I think just to get a few graphical bells and whistles when it's really the game play you are focused on when playing.


Have you checked out the download sizes for game demos and other enhancement packs? The target community is online players and a significant number of them are broadband ready. Last time I checked, UT2K3ís bonus pack + latest patch was roughly 145 megs together and the upcoming wolfenstein 3d free addon will be huge. Times are changing slowly and digital distribution is occurring. Iím sure the hardcore CS players ,say 10K out of how many out there, will be glad to download 200-300 megs compressed to take CS to the next level.

BTW: Iím not flaming you with my response as it may seem that way. Iím just pointing out the fact that gamers are savvy and can and will do what it takes to enjoy their favorite games to the fullest when given an option too. Iíve been on both sides of the fence and understand how much work you guys go through during development.

Peace.
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Old 05-01-2003, 08:46 PM   #12
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

Cool reply, no offense taken.

In the end I can't give a definite answer as to why the PC graphics will not be enhanced.

I still think that CS:CZ is geared towards gamers who do not know much about the CounterStrike game. I do believe you that most CounterStrike players have the necessary bandwidth to download hundreds of megs of patches. When I wrote about that problem I was thinking of newer gamers who are playing CS:CZ usually for single player only and maybe a little bit for net play. but that's really wrong of me to assume that most new players who buy CS:CZ won't have a good net connection. We'll just have to wait and see.

It gets confusing because there are two games, CS and CS:CZ and then there are two platforms, PC and XBox.

I only comment on CS:CZ because that's what we have control over, not CS.
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Old 05-02-2003, 07:44 PM   #13
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

This one is easy to answer. We have to support software mode for the PC to remain backward compatible with CS. Valve requires it. Otherwise we would have definitely done more with the graphics.
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Old 05-05-2003, 03:13 PM   #14
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

- Xbox won't look that much better, it's still the hl engine
- I fully support games that are playable on older systems, Counter-strike looks very good to me, It's maybe not as technological advanced, but it doesn't disturb me, some games have more advanced gfx but with many designwise errors. I want to buy a game for 50$ or Euro, but I don't want to pay 400$ updating my system to be able to play it. Some games just have far better gfx than others without using the latest gfx cards etc. Take Dungeon Seige, advanced 3D gfx, compare it with Divine Divinity, 2D Still Divine Divinty looks far better than Dungeon seige. Only one reason for that, instead of developing new tech, they spend their time optimalizing the current tech and creating supreme art. I would rather have lowpoly models with awsome textures than highpoly models with cheap textures....

If more developers would think like this, you would be able to buy more games, with the money you saved not buying the latest geforce.
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Old 05-05-2003, 04:40 PM   #15
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

Yes, but if we thought like that then the graphic advancment in games would be getting no where. I, agree that it should be playable for lower qualifications, but not everyone wants that. Most people would like to see new and better things. I think CZ is fine, I have changed my opinion from before, but we don't want all the developers to think like that.
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Old 05-06-2003, 02:42 PM   #16
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

developers should be less dedicated to making the bast gfx engine and more into the best gameplay, AI etc..

Some games just look very good and play like crap, those games get overhyped and leads to dissapointed gamers.

CS is so popular because it's gameplay, and should not get played more because better gfx.

I agree better gfx is welcome but not at the cost of loosing fans with systems that can't handle it anymore.
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Old 05-06-2003, 04:19 PM   #17
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

i agree kind of but do u wanna play a game with nice gamplay and AI but graphics suck? hell no but i say improve the graphics a little and improve gameplay and weapons list [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] a lot if people care that much about graphics they should buy a new graphix card!
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Old 05-06-2003, 05:07 PM   #18
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

Return to Castle Wolfenstein: Tides of War, an Xbox conversion of the PC hit. Notice any similarities between this game and the upcoming port of Counter-Strike?

RTCW Xbox Exclusive Features:

<ul type="square">[*]Award-winning multiplayer via Xbox Live and SystemLink [*]Two-Player Cooperative Mode (split screen) through the single player campaign [*]All-new Elimination multiplayer game mode [*]Six exclusive new multiplayer levels [*]Dolby Digital 5.1 Audio and HDTV video support [*]New weapon: Shotgun[/list]Other Features:

<ul type="square">[*]Complete updated single player campaign for console and console controllers [*]Prologue mission with seven new single player levels [*]Training level [*]New special items to overpower the Nazi army, zombies and X-creatures [*]Enhanced in-game movies [*]New in-game secrets with special rewards for finding all secrets on a level [*]Special bonuses for eliminating enemies via stealth [*]Auto Aim for better controller accuracy (toggleable on/off) [/list]
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Old 05-06-2003, 05:29 PM   #19
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

The graphics on pc are already pimp as hell and the xbox one will barely be better so the difference of gfx is like nothing
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Old 05-07-2003, 06:43 PM   #20
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

Heh. the xbox may be better than barely better gfx [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Keep in mind, there's a bunch of stuff we couldn't do on the PC 'cause we have to support a software renderer. Not required on xbox...
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Old 05-07-2003, 07:10 PM   #21
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

just because you have to support software rendering doesn't mean you can't have gfx options only for users with high end cards, no?
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Old 05-07-2003, 08:51 PM   #22
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Default Re: CSX compared to PC Condition Zero !!!WtF

Yes, but when did I say they should'nt focus equally on both? So everything the game has to offer should be equally made for it. Don't interpret what I said without knowing what I really meant..........
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