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Old 07-05-2005, 02:12 AM   #1
badman
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Default Original SiN Coming to Source?

The writer of PC Gamer UK's SiN Episodes cover story, Craig Person, has been posting juicy tidbits from the article in our forums. Not only did he reveal that SiN Episodes utilizes a "heavily modified" version of the Source engine, but he also hinted that the orignal SiN might make an updated appearance in Valve's engine:
<blockquote>
I asked them about redoing SiN in Source, but you'll have to read the article to find out more
</blockquote>
Stay tuned for more on this..
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Old 07-05-2005, 02:57 PM   #2
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Default Re: Original SiN Coming to Source?

OMG sin in source? i cant wait. what is source?
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Old 07-05-2005, 03:15 PM   #3
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Default Re: Original SiN Coming to Source?

Source is a proprietary engine developed by Valve Software. It powers Half-Life 2, Counter-Strike: Source and Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines among others.
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Old 07-05-2005, 05:22 PM   #4
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Default Re: Original SiN Coming to Source?

Lets hope it isn't like HL:S, that was the biggest let down ever.
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Old 07-05-2005, 06:47 PM   #5
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Default Re: Original SiN Coming to Source?

I canít stop laughing. I just find so much Irony in this someone should make it a movie.
Donít get me wrong, I love Sin with all my little heart. Iíll buy Sin2 by any means possible.

The Irony
1) Activision Forced Sin out too quickly with bugs (Major Stab)
2) Half-Life 1 Killed Sin (Sin was still buggy, and no CTF Multiplayer)
3) Sinners Petition for Sin2 (Which I started BTW) &gt; http://www.petitiononline.com/sin2/
4) The outcry for Sin2 help get Ritual motivated Ritual into looking to releasing Sin2
5) No Publisher wanted to Publish Sin2 despite the outcry and Ritual Demo of Sin2
6) Ritual Only option cut the publisher out! Besides Publishers are EVIL, with deadlines, having the final say on everythingÖ
7) Now Hated Steam update going to release Sin2 even though Value killed the original game

I think I got it all!

Hopefully Ritual can make some money off releasing it this way, maybe in a year or so a publisher can re-release it on a CD/DVD for others who canít or refuse to download threw Steam.
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Old 07-05-2005, 11:59 PM   #6
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Default Re: Original SiN Coming to Source?

Quote:
Originally posted by Xenogenetic:
Lets hope it isn't like HL:S, that was the biggest let down ever.
I don't think that's really fair. They never said it was going to be a complete remake. Never once did they indicate it would have better textures or models or any of that. It was only meant to be something of a tech demo to demonstrate thsat content from the original Half-Life could be ported almost directly to Source.

-----

ninken, while I don't share your disdain for Steam I do think it's rather humorously ironic that the development house that more or less put the nail in Sin's coffin is now the vehical for its rebirth.
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Old 07-06-2005, 12:14 AM   #7
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Default Re: Original SiN Coming to Source?

That doesnt mean it wasnt a let down, and Valve has gotten too much praise from me already about HL2 and CS:S that this shouldnt be called "unfair" at all.
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Old 07-06-2005, 12:40 AM   #8
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Default Re: Original SiN Coming to Source?

I dunno why people rave on about Source engine. It's nothing special. Infact the tools are down right insulting. A bunch of HL1 legacy tools with no improvements, just a few new features for Source's few new capabilties over HL1. Unreal has and will always have the best development tools, and better development tools mean a better game, quicker and cheaper.
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Old 07-06-2005, 01:35 AM   #9
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Default Re: Original SiN Coming to Source?

Quote:
Originally posted by Sonic_Wang:
... Unreal has and will always have the best development tools, and better development tools mean a better game, quicker and cheaper.
Blasphemy! Someone get a pointy stick so I can poke this man. Repeatedly.

We all know Radiant technology - past and present - is by far superior to all other technologiesÖ

On a more serious note: Iím not a fan of Source. I canít comment on its dev tools, but the look ingame doesnít do it for me. Unreal is sort of half and half - first generation was pretty good, but with itís almost 100 percent reliance on static meshes since then itís sort of lost its charm, and at times it seems overly and unnecessarily complex. But thereís no doubting the power behind it, and what you can do with it.

Personally for looks, feel and dev tools Radiant has always been my favorite, but Iíll have to see what the next generation brings. Supposedly id hasnít released itís competitor for UE3, and itís hard to judge UE3 too much just from what weíve seen.
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Old 07-06-2005, 04:50 AM   #10
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Default Re: Original SiN Coming to Source?

Ok, from that post it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

First of all, development tools does not mean just the level editor. UED is an all in one editing suite capable of so much more than radiant, from the levels, to materials, to static meshes, to aniamted meshes, to sounds, to music, to cutscenes, to particles, to code! And UED for UE3 has further imrpoved itself with a physics editor and a visual scripting system, to name a few new additions. Even though Doom 3 does have some very very nice tools for editing other areas of the game, it still pales in comparison to UED. I can't wait to check out UE3's UED, and also Serious Engine 2's editor sounds very interesting indeed.

Second of all, meshes are the way of the future. The good level designers know this and are learning 3d to add detail to levels that brushes cannot touch. Most engines these days use meshes to add detail to their levels now. Even Source and Doom 3. And most other engine's levels are built entirely out of mesh, where brushes like Quake's don't exist. Saying static meshes make the level building process too complicated is like saying that making characters out of meshes is too complex when sprite's will do. It's the evolution of games and their graphics.
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Old 07-06-2005, 05:21 AM   #11
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Default Re: Original SiN Coming to Source?

First of all, I was only half serious. It's called a joke. If I wanted to debate engines I'd need more then a couple sentences to put my points in order. Everyone has different opinions and tastes - I stated mine. If I for no other reason I would use Quake technology because of how it "feels" ingame.

Second of all, Iím not just talking about the level editor - Iíve done content creation in all areas of Quake and it is 10 times easier to get something ingame compared to Unreal, which even though I havenít used extensively I know quite a bit about.

Third, I know that static meshes are necessary in certain circumstances and that is why Iím becoming a proficient modeler/texture artist. My point was that in excess they take away from the game, and that Unreal is over reliant on them. Or maybe you haven't noticed the Unreal communitiesí constant complaints about getting stuck on static meshes, not being able to do tricks because of static meshes, static meshes blocking shots, etc, etc, etc.

I've played competitive Unreal, and competitive Quake for a very long time and I'd take bsp over static meshes any day.

/Edit - by the way, I never said static meshes made level building more complicated/complex... I was referring to Unreal Technology in general

Fourth, most of what you mentioned falls in the ďoverly complex and unnecessaryĒ category. Visual scripting is like paint by numbers - nice for the little kids, but unessary for an intelligent person.

Finally when I say "radiant" I mean Quake technology in general, I felt that was a given - most of the time the technology is referred to by the editor name. Quake technology is beautifully simple and elegant in it's workings - it gets the job done without the gimmicks.

/Edit2 - Anyway, like I said - everyone has different opinions and tastes, and I'm not trying to slam yours - I was just kidding around. I've been intently watching all news and videos on UE3 and am looking as forward to it's release as much as the next person, but I don't personally prefer Unreal Technology for a number of reasons.
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Old 07-06-2005, 09:12 PM   #12
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Default Re: Original SiN Coming to Source?

Again, you're mistaken. I understand people have opinions, but what you describe as your opinion your trying to enforce as fact which it isn't, and is rather ignorant.

I have extensive experience in both Quake and Unreal, and Unreal has far far better tools and means to implement assets into game. And i'm talking about the stock standard engines released by the developer (UT2004 and Quake 3 Arena). I did do a bit of CoD modding and it was a freaking nightmare to get models into it.
Unreal has better support for more 3d programs too, so i can accutally use Maya or now, even XSI rather than that POS Max. Oh, yeah, they also have the UDN a great site dedicated to Unreal development and a major help.
You have a misguided beleif of how static meshes are used in Unreal. You have the utterly absurd beleif that static meshes are a requirement in unreal, they are not. If you don't want to stick static meshes randomly and spam the level with them like Epic stupidly did in a lot of UT2003 levels, here's a really wild thought, DON'T! Static meshes can be used for so much more than props. In unreal, they are scalable (something Doom 3 and Source lack) and can be used far more extensively. They can be uesd from a simple visual prop to an entire level's geometry. CTF-Magma uses nothing but static meshes (except for volume brushes and the main carve out brush), and it's one of the best looking levels in UT2003/4 and it doesn't get in the way like DM-Curse3's static meshes.
Don't confuse the technology with the game. They are two entiely different things. That's the game, not the tools or the tech.

"Fourth, most of what you mentioned falls in the ďoverly complex and unnecessaryĒ category. Visual scripting is like paint by numbers - nice for the little kids, but unessary for an intelligent person. "

That is the most ignorant thing i've ever read. Really. Wow. So, tools to ease the implementation and use of all the hundreds of assets games require is "overly complex and unnecessary"? You also obviously have no idea about what UE3's visual scripting system does. About 95% of what normally a programmer would have to do for a scripted event previously, can in UE3 be simply done by the level designer. They've done all sorts of shit with it, without needing a programmer.

"Finally when I say "radiant" I mean Quake technology in general, I felt that was a given - most of the time the technology is referred to by the editor name."

That's rediculous. Doom 3 also uses radiant, and so does CoD2's engine which is not Quake 3. Why would anyone refer to Quake 3 engine as Radiant? No one refers to Source tech as Hammer or Worldcraft.

As you're a level designer, i can understand that you have preferences in a level editor. When i was making levels, i really liked Radiant. Maniupating brushes in UED was a freaking joke, but now i'm a 3d artist and more techically proficient, and have painful experiences with other shitty commerical engines such as Renderware, I really know how awesome and well designed Unreal's tools are, from model implementation to level creation.

Unreal engine's development tools are far more advanced than Quake 3 or even Doom 3's. But i will say this, Quake and esspecially Doom 3 DO have a far far better console than the current version of Unreal, i'll give you that. Quake and Doom 3's player movement also has a nicer feel, which is probably an engine thing.

As i said, i understand you have preferences. But don't to say that Quake's tools are better than Unreal's because they aren't. UE2's tools are freaking buggy, but they are easy to work with and they do the job well with many, many features. Serious Engine 1 is a close 2nd in the line of good tools from engines i've used.
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Old 07-06-2005, 10:32 PM   #13
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Default Re: Original SiN Coming to Source?

Quote:
Originally posted by badman:
Source is a proprietary engine developed by Valve Software. It powers Half-Life 2, Counter-Strike: Source and Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines among others.
I wonder whatever happened to the game Arkane Studios was making on The Source Engine.

My guess is that it would've been Arx Fatalis 2: The Prequel.

But, they did mention they were either going to do the Arx prequel or something new entirely, so who knows what they began developing w/ on Source.
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Old 07-07-2005, 01:12 AM   #14
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Default Re: Original SiN Coming to Source?

Quote:
Originally posted by Sonic_Wang:
...
Think what you want - I honestly donít give a crap. When it comes down to it whether I use Unreal, Quake, FarCry - whatever technology - I can still produce what I want, how I want and meet deadlines.

I choose to use Radiant technology, it's a personal choice, and I will continue to choose Radiant technology until another technology gives me the same or better results - Unreal is not that technology. I don't give a horse's ass what gimmicks the toolset has - it all depends on how it looks, feels, and plays in the game.

And I will continue to call Quake technology games Radiant games because Radiant is the primary devolvement tool that links all those games together - someone may not know it's powered by Quake tech but it's easy enough to see it uses the same editor.

And just so you can rest easy - I already know everything you continue to try and "educate" me about so youíre wasting your breath.

When I talk to someone who acts like they know the topic I donít expect the need to explain every detail as if Iím talking to some kid in primary school.

Donít mistake omission for ignorance.
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