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Old 05-21-2006, 05:04 PM   #1
Switchblade_Honey
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Default Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

The mutagen "bullet time" effect needs tweaking. Most of the time with the current system, one of two things happens:

1. You find a barrel of mutagen, load up on it in case there are some bad guys round the next corner. You spend half a minute walking along a corridor in slow motion, and by the time you find some enemies, the mutagen has worn off.

2. You break a barrel in combat to try and take advantage of it. However, by the time you've managed to stand in the cloud for a couple of seconds, either you're dead, or your enemies are.

I suggest a system where the "bullet-time" effect from mutagen is inactive, unless the player is "in combat" (by whatever definition the game stats already track) or fires a weapon. This solves the problem of slow-motion corridor walks.

When not in combat, Blade's mutagen level would still decline, but much more slowly. This would stop the player using mutagen in levels where it's not intended, and give some incentive to get into combat hastily.

It also means that the "bullet-time" effect will tend to last for the beginning of a combat - just long enough to give the player a chance of surviving an unexpected attack.

The typical experience with the modified system would be:

1. You charge up on mutagen and bust into a room, but it's empty. You move on to the next room, and your mutagen bar is still half full when two Syntex goons drop through the skylight. Instantly, slow-mo kicks in and you have enough time to headshot one and take cover before the next one can shoot back.

2. You break a barrel in combat and run through it - since you are in combat, the effect kicks in instantly.
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Old 05-21-2006, 05:31 PM   #2
Moleculor
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

I'm not sure this is the solution, but SOMETHING needs to be done to make mutagen useful.

Currently, I think the biggest problem is that it doesn't actually offer ANY sort of advantage. It just slows the game down, making things 'look cool'. Reloading isn't any faster, moving isn't any faster, no advantage at all.
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Old 05-21-2006, 06:03 PM   #3
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

My suggestion is just to rip off Max Payne. Have a meter that you can store up the mutagen in, and then activate it with the press of a button. As it currently stands, the barrels are pretty much useless, aside from 1 or 2 fights. I can understand the "tactical" strategies required to use them properly, but they just aren't very fun.
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Old 05-21-2006, 06:15 PM   #4
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

Just carry one with you, drop it where enemies are and shoot it...
The gas alone damages them, a nice little area of effect weapon there.
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Old 05-21-2006, 06:40 PM   #5
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

That's what I meant by "Tactical strategies," but like I already said, I don't think it's very fun.
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Old 05-21-2006, 07:03 PM   #6
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

Get rid of the shit or make it a portable power-up.
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Old 05-21-2006, 07:23 PM   #7
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

Quote:
Originally posted by Switchblade_Honey:
The mutagen "bullet time" effect needs tweaking. Most of the time with the current system, one of two things happens:

1. You find a barrel of mutagen, load up on it in case there are some bad guys round the next corner. You spend half a minute walking along a corridor in slow motion, and by the time you find some enemies, the mutagen has worn off.

2. You break a barrel in combat to try and take advantage of it. However, by the time you've managed to stand in the cloud for a couple of seconds, either you're dead, or your enemies are.
Heh, honestly, I didn't find the barrels to be that much of a struggle. I usually carried two barrels with me where I could. They were helpful sometimes, others they just made it a pain in the ass. </font><span class="spoiler" onmouseover="this.className='spoilerhighlight'" onmouseout="this.className='spoiler'">Like in the U4 labs where you're trapped for the second time. Got stuck and the darn thing took more health than the enemies did. </span><font class="post"> You can pick them up and just chuck them where ever you need them really.

But the idea of carrying individual packets of the stuff might work, maybe a sort of inhalent that he carries around now that he's discovered what it can do for him. I think JC could be smart enough to make one for him.
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Old 05-21-2006, 08:56 PM   #8
Moleculor
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

Quote:
Originally posted by ertertwert:
That's what I meant by "Tactical strategies," but like I already said, I don't think it's very fun.
The idea of having to carry giant canisters in front of my face doesn't strike me as very fun either. And even with doing that, the gas isn't useful. I actually ended up avoiding clouds at times, simply because it slowed the game down too much. I don't want to spend five seconds staring at me reloading a shotgun, I want it to be done in half a second and blasting away again.

Lets use Max Payne as an example, as others have... in Max Payne, when you go into slo-mo, Max -still- moves at a decent rate of speed. It's like the -rest- of the world slows down a lot, and he slows down only a little, or not at all. This makes it fun. This makes you seem 'bad-ass'. Being stuck in the same slo-mo as everyone else? That's boring.
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Old 05-21-2006, 11:47 PM   #9
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

Quote:
Originally posted by Moleculor:
Quote:
Originally posted by ertertwert:
That's what I meant by "Tactical strategies," but like I already said, I don't think it's very fun.
The idea of having to carry giant canisters in front of my face doesn't strike me as very fun either. And even with doing that, the gas isn't useful. I actually ended up avoiding clouds at times, simply because it slowed the game down too much. I don't want to spend five seconds staring at me reloading a shotgun, I want it to be done in half a second and blasting away again.

Lets use Max Payne as an example, as others have... in Max Payne, when you go into slo-mo, Max -still- moves at a decent rate of speed. It's like the -rest- of the world slows down a lot, and he slows down only a little, or not at all. This makes it fun. This makes you seem 'bad-ass'. Being stuck in the same slo-mo as everyone else? That's boring.
Then perhaps this isn't the game for you. Personally its not that hard to pick up a barrel and throw it to where I need to. And carrying it isn't too bad either cause it acts like a shield then if you use it right. The gas is meant to 'highten' reaction time, not speed you up faster than them ala bullet time. Essencially what happens in Max Payne is that he is sped up a bit all together, muscles and all. Where as in SiN Episodes the idea is basicly that he can see faster, but not act faster. Think of it like a sort of high or something. It doesn't really affect the muscles at all.

I think the mutagen system works just fine.
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Old 05-22-2006, 01:15 AM   #10
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

Gee, I never knew the mutagen cloud is of any use to you, I avoid it like I do with those flamming barrels. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
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Old 05-22-2006, 01:21 AM   #11
David_Grove
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

I know what you mean. It wasn't till my second time throught that I managed to see the message about reponce time increase. It was a really quick message so the first time around I caught a glimps of it and thought that it meant the close slows me down all together. Kinda like spinning around twenty times and then trying to reload a gun.
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Old 05-22-2006, 01:31 PM   #12
Moleculor
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

Quote:
Originally posted by David_Grove:
Quote:
Originally posted by Moleculor:
Quote:
Originally posted by ertertwert:
That's what I meant by "Tactical strategies," but like I already said, I don't think it's very fun.
The idea of having to carry giant canisters in front of my face doesn't strike me as very fun either.
Then perhaps this isn't the game for you.
You're actually saying that because I want to see where I'm walking, this game isn't for me? I had a fracking blast playing this game. The mutagen seems like a tacked-on, pointless 'feature' of no actual use or purpose.
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Old 05-22-2006, 04:51 PM   #13
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

i agree that the mutagent could use some tweaking. it does give you a nice advantage, but i hardly use it because it slows the game to a crawl, not framerate wise, but just in general. its got good potential, but your actions shouldn't be slowed down so much.
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Old 05-22-2006, 05:43 PM   #14
David_Grove
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

Quote:
Originally posted by Moleculor:
You're actually saying that because I want to see where I'm walking, this game isn't for me? I had a fracking blast playing this game. The mutagen seems like a tacked-on, pointless 'feature' of no actual use or purpose.
No, I just got the impression you weren't impressed with the game overall. Sorry on that.

As for being a tacked-on pointless feature, I found it to be extremely helpful. Taking on six chaingunners with maxed out mutagen was not a problem for me cause they don't seem to see you as quick as they normally would. That and it makes shooting their head with the assault rifle a lot easier when you're at longer distances.
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Old 05-22-2006, 08:07 PM   #15
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

But you could have just as easily taken them off without the "boost." I don't get any help from it at all because I have a fairly quick reaction time.
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Old 05-22-2006, 08:16 PM   #16
David_Grove
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

Quote:
Originally posted by ertertwert:
But you could have just as easily taken them off without the "boost." I don't get any help from it at all because I have a fairly quick reaction time.
You do, the average player doesn't. The average player, or at least a little above average, is what Ritual is aiming for. At least that's the impression I've gotten.
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Old 05-23-2006, 12:59 AM   #17
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

I thought the mutagen was a pretty good idea but ended up kind of clumsy in practice. Most of the time you don't know when the enemies will pop in so you can't plan to place one where they are and you're also too slow at picking up a barrel and throwing it (which usually gets you hurt more).

One thing that was useful was putting barrels at cover points so you get the slow down time and shoot in and out of cover. I thought it would also be useful to have a push or kick button for quickly throwing the barrels at the badguys without lowering your weapon.
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Old 05-23-2006, 01:09 AM   #18
David_Grove
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

Quote:
Originally posted by PunchPudding:
One thing that was useful was putting barrels at cover points so you get the slow down time and shoot in and out of cover. I thought it would also be useful to have a push or kick button for quickly throwing the barrels at the badguys without lowering your weapon.
A kick button would be awesome. Kinda like how they did it in FEAR or Condemned. And it would give the player more of a sense that they're not just a pair of floating hands.
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Old 05-23-2006, 07:45 PM   #19
Switchblade_Honey
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

My suggestion is basically the same system, except that the mutagen kicks in automatically when combat starts.

The reason I think that's better is that the player has probably already mapped the easy-to-reach keys to the core functions. So reaching for the bullet-time key is going to be non-intuitive - if something really bad comes round the corner, you will end up fumbling the key or hesitating and getting killed.

That bit after you hack the ID barrier, when a grunt comes right round the corner - it would have been nice to have a bit of mutagen kick in.
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Old 05-23-2006, 10:32 PM   #20
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

I just carry a barrel with me and let the Sinteck soldiers break it with thier chain guns...
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Old 05-23-2006, 11:49 PM   #21
David_Grove
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

Quote:
Originally posted by Switchblade_Honey:
My suggestion is basically the same system, except that the mutagen kicks in automatically when combat starts.

The reason I think that's better is that the player has probably already mapped the easy-to-reach keys to the core functions. So reaching for the bullet-time key is going to be non-intuitive - if something really bad comes round the corner, you will end up fumbling the key or hesitating and getting killed.

That bit after you hack the ID barrier, when a grunt comes right round the corner - it would have been nice to have a bit of mutagen kick in.
See, problem with that would be annoyence. I don't want mutagen kicking in ever time just one enemy pops around the corner. That and it would annoy the hell out of players that don't even need it. And putting a check box for auto-mutagen would be redundent because it would get so annoying that you'd be forced to turn it off, especially in areas where its not that big a struggle. So in the end, if you do store it up it would be best to use a key stroke rather than a system judging worthyness of use of mutagen which might be more valuable later on.
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Old 05-24-2006, 03:11 PM   #22
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

Quote:
Originally posted by David_Grove:
Quote:
Originally posted by Switchblade_Honey:
My suggestion is basically the same system, except that the mutagen kicks in automatically when combat starts.

The reason I think that's better is that the player has probably already mapped the easy-to-reach keys to the core functions. So reaching for the bullet-time key is going to be non-intuitive - if something really bad comes round the corner, you will end up fumbling the key or hesitating and getting killed.

That bit after you hack the ID barrier, when a grunt comes right round the corner - it would have been nice to have a bit of mutagen kick in.
See, problem with that would be annoyence. I don't want mutagen kicking in ever time just one enemy pops around the corner. That and it would annoy the hell out of players that don't even need it. And putting a check box for auto-mutagen would be redundent because it would get so annoying that you'd be forced to turn it off, especially in areas where its not that big a struggle. So in the end, if you do store it up it would be best to use a key stroke rather than a system judging worthyness of use of mutagen which might be more valuable later on.
He didn't say anything about storing it. If you don't want the mutangen effect, then don't walk through the green haze, much like it already is now.

There should be canisters that you can place in the health dispensers so you can get a quick bust of the stuff, that would be funny, useless, but funny.
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Old 05-25-2006, 01:47 AM   #23
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

It's fine. Shhhh!
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Old 05-25-2006, 06:30 AM   #24
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

i'd like to see the mutagen boost your speed and increase your melee attacks in adition to the slowing of time.

I don't like moving at a stand still... its just weird. I also feel like the melee attacks aren't that strong, prehaps if they were faster...

I also would like some c4 or something in Sin:E... but thats because i like large explosions where things fly around...
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Old 05-25-2006, 08:00 AM   #25
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Default Re: Suggestion about fixing the mutagen system

Like most players I've found the mutagen to be pretty useless at times, granted I only played the game once so far and haven't evolved my mutagen tactics. It never even occured to me to carry one around or release gas on unsuspecting soldiers.

I guess that's what so good about SinE:1. Replayability with different tactics to find out and use is just plain awesome. :P
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