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Old 05-20-2006, 11:35 AM   #1
slyda83
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Default PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELESS?

i bought sin episodes and now realized that my dvd is completely useless if steam doesn't exist. Just like heat.net existed for us during the sin 1 days, and now no longer lets us emulate a lan environment online, this steam service will one day die too. And then what? Then I paid $180 for sin episodes and cant even play the damn game!! What if i want my grand kids to play this game? Surely steam wont be around then anymore, and therefore neither will be my game.

However, maybe a cracked/illegal version of the game is better because of this, as it does not require internet/steam to be working for the game to work. Considering updates are not possible without steam, at least the game will still be playable/installable at all then. Hell, if Ritual keeps this up, I think Sin episodes will die faster than Sin 1 did. I am definitely not spending another $20 on a useless dvd again however. I am not going to let my video gaming fun depend on the existence of some online service that ritual can't guarantee will even exist in 10 years... WHAT DO U SAY 2 THAT RITUAL?! lol... its like im buying the ability to play it until steam goes broke... and as an x-sin 1 player from '97 I feel really ripped off. I did not buy a product, but the right to temporarily utilize the product, and personally, i wont buy the other 8 episodes because of this... i rather just download them... then at least i can keep the product for ever without worrying about the existence of steam... however, if ritual were to make a nice installable non-internet dependant version of the game... i will definitely purchase it like i did with all the other sin games. sorry guys, i bought the game to support the company, but i got disappointed when i found out i was better off downloading the game.

So as for you anti piracy nuts: don't over do it with the anti piracy protections (such as steam/encrypted dvds) or you might be encouraging piracy without intending to. Just a thought.
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Old 05-20-2006, 11:42 AM   #2
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELES

Quote:
Originally posted by slyda83:
Surely steam wont be around then anymore, and therefore neither will be my game.
What makes you think this? I think it's more likely that one day you won't be able to play Sin since modern operating systems don't run the games of now anymore. Kinda the same case with DOS-games, you'll be ending up using emulators or trying to get the sourcecode to be released so someone might be willingly to port it over. But I find that extremely unilikely to happen within a very long period. I wouldn't worry about Steam gong away. Besides, there might be other programs such as Steam to take Steam's games over when that disappears.

Quote:
Originally posted by slyda83:
So as for you anti piracy nuts: don't over do it with the anti piracy protections (such as steam/encrypted dvds) or you might be encouraging piracy without intending to. Just a thought.
That's already happening.
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Old 05-20-2006, 11:49 AM   #3
slyda83
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELESS?

its not guaranteed that it will or will not exist in 10 years... but is that really a risk your willing to take? im not... personally i cant believe ritual didnt stick with the quake engine... now they got this piece of shit hl2 engine instead, but hey thats my personal opinion. Btw: why do i say piece of shit? try strafing and moving forward at the same time. then try it in the old sin, and tell me hl2 engine doesn't suck after doing that. anyways... thats not even what this is about.
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Old 05-20-2006, 11:50 AM   #4
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELES

Piracy often produces a product that is better, more compatible, more portable, and sometimes of higher quality than a for-cost counterpart. This is just life, it's been this way since there's been copyable media. There is a legal way to get the best of both worlds- buy the product, and your license entitles you to do anything you want with that media as long as it isn't distributed or otherwise in breach of the license agreement.

You are legally responsible to buy a game that you play, but anything you do with the content it is your right. No one is against the actions involved in piracy if none of the parties involved are actually pirates!

The high-and-mighty freedom-loving pirate concept is mostly a farce. My standard is this: if I'm not willing to sneak out of a store with the product under my arm, then I'm not willing to illegally download the product. This goes double for independent publishers!
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Old 05-20-2006, 12:57 PM   #5
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELES

Quote:
Originally posted by Iggy01:
Quote:
Originally posted by slyda83:
Surely steam wont be around then anymore, and therefore neither will be my game.
What makes you think this? I think it's more likely that one day you won't be able to play Sin since modern operating systems don't run the games of now anymore. Kinda the same case with DOS-games, you'll be ending up using emulators or trying to get the sourcecode to be released so someone might be willingly to port it over. But I find that extremely unilikely to happen within a very long period. I wouldn't worry about Steam gong away. Besides, there might be other programs such as Steam to take Steam's games over when that disappears.
This kind of argument pops out once in a while over at the SteamPowered forums, where I am what you may call a regular. It usually boils down to something like what Iggy posted here. IF Steam would SOMETIME be abandoned, the network would probably be adopted by some other company. And if this still doesn't make you feel any better, Gabe Newell (founder of VALVe) have also said in an interview that if they would ever go out of business and the Steam network would have to be shut down, they'll release a patch that'll remove the need for authentication, essentially making their games stand-alone.

I realize that it might not make you feel that much better having someone you don't know telling you this, so I did try to find the source for that interview. It was some time ago though, and I didn't find it, so you'll just have to take mine and other members of the SteamPowered forum words for it. Here's one example of such a thread. There Jigoku also mentions that VALVe have even tested that this patch works, so it is standing by in case it will ever be needed.

I hope that'll enable you to feel better about Steam [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] In my opinion it's a great system.
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Old 05-20-2006, 03:10 PM   #6
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELES

Quote:
they'll release a patch that'll remove the need for authentication, essentially making their games stand-alone.
What he said. Nothing to worry about guys.
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Old 05-20-2006, 07:06 PM   #7
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELESS?

hmm well i guess that makes me feel a little better... i still don't like all the inconveniences im being put thru to play the game... kinda crappy... but good to know that they won't just leave us hang ;P
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Old 05-21-2006, 05:25 PM   #8
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELES

However, now you know: Don't buy the DVDs. Just buy straight through Steam.
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Old 05-21-2006, 09:13 PM   #9
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELES

I'm not exactly sure of this, because I have a constant connection to the internet, but isn't there an offline mode for steam?
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Old 05-21-2006, 09:30 PM   #10
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELES

You only need steam to authenticate the game. so if you buy the dvd and only have dial up you don't have to worry about always being online.
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Old 05-22-2006, 10:16 AM   #11
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELES

The offline mode of Steam has gone through some issues. When it first came out, there were two checkboxes that had to be set in a certain way for it to work, which confused a lot of people (they've since changed it to one). Once those options were set properly, you could simply unplug your ethernet, run Steam, then replug to get some LAN fragging in. Yay - it was annoying, but it worked.

But then they messed this up with a Steam patch, so you'd get an error if you tried to run Steam without the ethernet plugged into your PC. Uncool. So to work around this, you had to dsable your network card in Windows, run Steam, then re-enable. Um...yay? It worked, but took more time. But, they've since fixed this, so we're back to method listed in last paragraph (as far as I know).

To get around this bother, developers should gravitate towards the Stardock/Galactic Civilizations II method (or something similar). No copy protection on the discs whatsoever, but you have to register and activate your product to receive patches.

It should also be noted that GalCiv2 is selling very, very well, even though there's no copy protection whatsoever on the CDs. Was in the top 10 list of PC game sales last month.

-HM
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Old 05-22-2006, 11:20 AM   #12
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELES

Offline mode is really easy to use, I just did it now.

To simulate not having an internet connection I turned off my router, but kept my connection with the network as I am still connected to my hub. Then I just opened steam and it said it couldn't connet to the internet so I clicked go on offline mode.
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Old 05-22-2006, 11:30 AM   #13
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELES

Steam's offline modus is like roulette. Sometimes it works for you, sometimes not [img]/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
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Old 05-22-2006, 12:16 PM   #14
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELES

You shouldn't have to do tricks like that to get Steam in offline mode. It should just have a check box in the options which says "run Steam in offline mode". Then next time you run Steam, it just puts it offline.

And if you run it "on-line", there should be an option/button somewhere where you can immediately go into offline (and then click it again: back on-line again).

The whole "fiddling with hardware to trick it into thinking you're not connected to the Internet" is absurd.

-HM
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Old 05-22-2006, 12:39 PM   #15
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELES

Quote:
Originally posted by Hollow_Man:
You shouldn't have to do tricks like that to get Steam in offline mode. It should just have a check box in the options which says "run Steam in offline mode". Then next time you run Steam, it just puts it offline.

And if you run it "on-line", there should be an option/button somewhere where you can immediately go into offline (and then click it again: back on-line again).

The whole "fiddling with hardware to trick it into thinking you're not connected to the Internet" is absurd.

-HM
I have uninstalled Half-Life 2 a long time ago so I don't know much about Steam anymore, but if this is how it really works then it's certainly a strange way of working.
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Old 05-22-2006, 12:45 PM   #16
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Default Re: Steam app launching

I totally agree with that comment - I originally imagined that if you created a desktop launch shortcut for a Steam game, that it would launch the game without Steam, or put it into Offline mode. No such luck [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Steam seems to run OK, and doesn't appear to upset programs or other games (as long as you're on top of your "auto update game" settings) - but I'm an obsessive control freak when it comes to my PC, and I *hate* things being in the systray unless I know I have a definite need for them [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

It'd be nice if Steam could authenticate your games without also starting the update check process, ping of the news server, and whatever else it does when you start it - a real fast, single-hit auth that gets quickly out of your face and lets you play. It could be they didn't really think of that though [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

EDIT: And yes, the fact that there is no offline button is mystifying - you actually have to remove/disable your net connection, or tell your firewall to deny Steam net access, to force it into Offline mode. Very odd thinking indeed [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 05-22-2006, 01:00 PM   #17
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELES

Quote:
Originally posted by Hollow_Man:
You shouldn't have to do tricks like that to get Steam in offline mode. It should just have a check box in the options which says "run Steam in offline mode". Then next time you run Steam, it just puts it offline.

And if you run it "on-line", there should be an option/button somewhere where you can immediately go into offline (and then click it again: back on-line again).

The whole "fiddling with hardware to trick it into thinking you're not connected to the Internet" is absurd.

-HM
I don't know where you're coming up this fiddling with hardware story as you don't need to do that, nor have you ever needed to do that. People who only have 56K only have to come online once to activate it. Then never need to go online again, unless they want patches of course.

I don't see why you would want to run steam in offline mode if you have always on broadband, doesn't really consume any bandwidth unless it's downloading things. You don't need to have steam open all the time... so I don't see what you're problem with steam wanting to connect to the internet.
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Old 05-22-2006, 01:04 PM   #18
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELES

To get Steam into offline mode, you have to effectively remove your internet connection, and wait for Steam to fail in connecting, then click "Offline Mode" - there is no manual way to do it, apparently - read that on the Steam website.

By fiddling hardware, we are probably talking about unplugging a USB modem so the net connection is not present. Quickly changing your Firewall settings to deny Steam access will achieve the same result. Steam will only prompt for offline mode if it cannot connect your account. The point is, a button in Steam saying "Go to offline mode" would make these steps irrelevant.
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Old 05-22-2006, 01:06 PM   #19
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELES

Quote:
Originally posted by KalZakath:
To get Steam into offline mode, you have to effectively remove your internet connection, and wait for Steam to fail in connecting, then click "Offline Mode" - there is no manual way to do it, apparently - read that on the Steam website.

By fiddling hardware, we are probably talking about unplugging a USB modem so the net connection is not present. Quickly changing your Firewall settings to deny Steam access will achieve the same result. Steam will only prompt for offline mode if it cannot connect your account. The point is, a button in Steam saying "Go to offline mode" would make these steps irrelevant.
But why do you want to go into offline mode if you have always on internet? That's like saying I have to trick my tv into showing this movie in black and white because it's a colour movie.

There is nothing to gain by going into offline mode when you already have an internet connection on all the time.
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Old 05-22-2006, 01:26 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by CommanderZx2:

But why do you want to go into offline mode if you have always on internet? That's like saying I have to trick my tv into showing this movie in black and white because it's a colour movie.

There is nothing to gain by going into offline mode when you already have an internet connection on all the time.
To play without Steam starting, being in the background, and taking up resources. Why should I run Steam when I'm playing HL2 or Sin:E offline? It's just preference mate really - Steam is useless to me when playing offline, hence I don't want it running. It's nothing like tricking your TV into doing anything [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] lol
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Old 05-22-2006, 01:31 PM   #21
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELES

Quote:
Originally posted by KalZakath:
Quote:
Originally posted by CommanderZx2:

But why do you want to go into offline mode if you have always on internet? That's like saying I have to trick my tv into showing this movie in black and white because it's a colour movie.

There is nothing to gain by going into offline mode when you already have an internet connection on all the time.
To play without Steam starting, being in the background, and taking up resources. Why should I run Steam when I'm playing HL2 or Sin:E offline? It's just preference mate really - Steam is useless to me when playing offline, hence I don't want it running. It's nothing like tricking your TV into doing anything [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] lol
Now you're saying something different.
You said you had to trick it to run offline, you'll were complaining that it's difficult to run it in offline mode when you have an internet connection. Now you're saying that you want to run the game without steam, that's a completley different thing.

You could also say an anti virus program is completely useless to you when you don't have a virus, but are you going to run your PC without one. This applies to most PC software that runs in the background that does nothing until needed, but you run it anyways, why should steam be any different.

Hmm and oh those resources, lets see:
I have just opened steam and it's using a grand total of 0% CPU, and 5MB of ram... Wow that's less than google talk, msn, firefox and so on. Firefix, which currently has only one tab open is currently using 70MB of memory.

After leaving steam open for a while it's memory use has decreased to 3MB.
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Old 05-22-2006, 01:54 PM   #22
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELES

There's a few points I'd like to make on this.

First, I simply dislike the idea that without fiddling, I have to be on-line to play a game that doesn't need the Internet. Forget if it's taking up resources, CPU cycles, whatever. It's the point of the thing.

Second, it's taken them a while to get the off-line mode to work as "well" as it does right now. I remember way back I was going to a LAN party where they didn't have Internet. the way Steam worked, it simply wouldn't run unless you placed it in off-line mode with a valid internet connection first. So anyone who showed up at the LAN without putting Steam in offline mode BEFORE they got there was screwed. Steam would not run because it could not see the 'net to authenticate the person. As I implied, this has been fixed now.

But honestly, if my PC does happen to be on the 'net, the fact that in order to play SiN, I have to click Steam, LOG IN TO IT, wait for the main menu, then click SiN, is ridiculous. On top of that, unless I remember to set my status to "away", sometimes I'll here beeps in game telling me friends are writing me messages with the "Friends" system. This isn't a big deal, but again, it's the point of the thing. Why should I have to remember to set my status to "Away" in Steam when I'm playing a game that doesn't use the Internet?

I'll tell you why - piracy. This way Valve can keep track of everybody. And the people who lose are us - the people who legally bought the game. All the people who pirated SiN and HL2 are happily playing WITHOUT logging into Steam and dealing with these extra layers of bunk. And they wonder why people pirate games?

-HM
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Old 05-22-2006, 02:48 PM   #23
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELES

All your points are so minor they're negligible.
Quote:
Originally posted by Hollow_Man:
There's a few points I'd like to make on this.

First, I simply dislike the idea that without fiddling, I have to be on-line to play a game that doesn't need the Internet. Forget if it's taking up resources, CPU cycles, whatever. It's the point of the thing.

This makes no sense... you dislike the idea that you have to fiddle to play a game offline that is offline... You don't have to be online if you don't have a permanent internet connection. Why do you want to go offline when you play an offline game, there is no reason to want to be offline.

Being online while playing an offline game has no affect on the game at all, so why is it an issue to you?

Quote:
Originally posted by Hollow_Man:
Second, it's taken them a while to get the off-line mode to work as "well" as it does right now. I remember way back I was going to a LAN party where they didn't have Internet. the way Steam worked, it simply wouldn't run unless you placed it in off-line mode with a valid internet connection first. So anyone who showed up at the LAN without putting Steam in offline mode BEFORE they got there was screwed. Steam would not run because it could not see the 'net to authenticate the person. As I implied, this has been fixed now.

And so... the games are clearly labeled that you must have an internet connection to activate your game before playing.

Did you know that if you buy windows XP and you don't activate it, it will cease to function after 30 days? Steam is not on the only thing that uses online authentication for products, as time goes by almost everything will use it.

Currently I have music, documents, games, software and other things that use some form of online authentication to use them.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hollow_Man:
But honestly, if my PC does happen to be on the 'net, the fact that in order to play SiN, I have to click Steam, LOG IN TO IT, wait for the main menu, then click SiN, is ridiculous.

You can create an icon on your desktop that opens steam and runs you're game... but surely this is not too difficult to do on your own.. I mean you only need to move the mouse a few inchs. Are you disabled?

Quote:
Originally posted by Hollow_Man:
On top of that, unless I remember to set my status to "away", sometimes I'll here beeps in game telling me friends are writing me messages with the "Friends" system. This isn't a big deal, but again, it's the point of the thing. Why should I have to remember to set my status to "Away" in Steam when I'm playing a game that doesn't use the Internet?

Do you also complain about such minor things as having to click the start button to view the applications listed in it. Or perhaps having to set msn or aim onto busy mode when you are busy? Perhaps the fact that the sun sets at night annoys you as well?

Quote:
Originally posted by Hollow_Man:
I'll tell you why - piracy. This way Valve can keep track of everybody. And the people who lose are us - the people who legally bought the game. All the people who pirated SiN and HL2 are happily playing WITHOUT logging into Steam and dealing with these extra layers of bunk. And they wonder why people pirate games?

Steam is an online software distribution application, obviously all online software distribution applications come with built in anti piracy. It would commercial suicide not to have anti piracy in it.

People don't pirate games because of steam, people pirate games because they're cheap bastards who don't care for the livelihood of who they're stealing from.
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Old 05-22-2006, 03:04 PM   #24
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELES

I'll just add some little bits of information to this discussion.

You need Steam to run your games, period. Steam handles the filesystem for the games, so it isn't just sitting there to give you updates. If you look in the task manager while loading a game you'll notice that both the game and the Steam process will ramp up in RAM and CPU usage.

As for setting Friends in away mode. At least for me Friends remembers what status I was in last time Steam was open. So if I set my status to "offline", the next time I start Steam I will be offline. Also, the Friends system is still in beta, so please have patience with any quirks [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 05-22-2006, 03:27 PM   #25
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Default Re: PIRACY BETTER THAN HONESTY? SIN DVDS = USELES

Thanks for accusing me of being disabled. Why would you say such a thing just because I disagree with your point of view?

I've been playing PC games for a long time (since 1983), and every little bit of this copy protection madness that has surfaced since then just makes it that much more annoying to play a game. Yes, it isn't the largest bother in the world, but it's the point of the thing. All of these little details adds up to an annoying inconvenience.

Even if I put an icon on my desktop to run SiN it will still ask me to login, which is inane just to play a single player, i.e. non-Internet game.

And you are flat-out incorrect about it being "commerical suicide" to not have anti-piracy measures in games. Just ask Brad Wardell of Stardock, who is enjoying great sales of Galactic Civilizations II, a game that has no protection on its discs whatsoever. Oh, and you can also buy it on-line through their on-line distribution system (Stardock Central), and once you've done it, you don't need to use Stardock Central, or the Internet, to play the game. They have sold tons this way. Here's some of his comments regarding piracy, why they don't use copy protection, and sales figures of GalCiv2:

http://forums.galciv2.com/?ForumID=1...=106741#826390

And trust me - people DO pirate or crack games so they don't have to jump through hoops to run their games, whether it be using Steam or avoiding Safedisc or Starforce. That's why no-CD patches are so popular.

-HM
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