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Old 04-17-2000, 11:45 AM   #1
kAmALA
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Default via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

i need a new chip. at this point in time i
i choose to stick with intel. so i am looking
for a pIII. overclocking ability is not
an important issue (but would be nice down
the road) ram: 133 seems faster than 100, so
would preffer that.

what are all these things ? via, bx, apollo,
e, coppermine ?

i thought there were basic 3 chips: celeron, amd, PII
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Old 04-17-2000, 04:13 PM   #2
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

via: motherboard type X133 mhz new
bx: motherboard tyoe old standard
apollo : ?
e: a letter added to the intel chips to make them seems special such as 666e or 750 b has to do with bus rate
coppermine: latest intel chip
amd k7: latest amd chip
celeron: celeron
celeron II: same thing but with new instructions from coppermine
p2 old
p3: let into coppermine basically smae thing
hard to find not coppermine p3s now
hope thst helps but what do i know :P
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Old 04-17-2000, 04:15 PM   #3
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/...t2/default.asp
here it answer you questions good you see
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Old 04-17-2000, 04:27 PM   #4
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

Via: Chipset manufacturer
BX: Motherboard chipset by intel. The classic .
apollo : Via's chipset solution for the Coppermine
e: Indicates 133MHz FSB
Coppermine: The newer Pentium IIIs have the CuMine core, the older one's the Katmain core
k7: The former designation of AMD's Athlon
Celeron: intel's low cost cpu (mendocino/deschutes(?)core)
Celeron II: Celeron successor with Coppermine core
P2: Katmai's predecessor; Klamath and Deschutes core
P3: see Coppermine

I know this won't help much .


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BaDmAn[fb]
SiN Corps SiNtral
JC: "Umm boss I just called the security office at the nuclear power plant."
Blade: "Yeah and?"
JC: "The thing on the other end told me 'my blood will taste sweet.'"
Blade: "That is NOT good."
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Old 04-17-2000, 04:53 PM   #5
Lanik
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

This is my machine recommendation:

TX-based board
Rise WinChip PR 166 (MMX will never catch on)
16MB 72-Pin EDO (Fullpage Memory rocks!)
Soundblaster 16 ISA (might spring for the AWE32)
S3 Virge or Matrox Mystique
4x CD-Rom (it's going to be loud, but who cares!)
6 GB HD (I know I'll never fill it up, but NT 3.51 uses lots of space)
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Old 04-17-2000, 05:01 PM   #6
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

Know what is funny Lanik? Except for the WinChip I have all that shit on your list here.
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Old 04-17-2000, 06:35 PM   #7
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

Might as well bust a nut and go whole hog - Apple IIc, man! It r0x0rs your N4dZ!



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Old 04-17-2000, 06:51 PM   #8
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

BTW, you can thank Intel for clusterfvcking the market - it used to be relatively simple. You could get a Celeron or a PII or PIII, or you could go get a K6-2. Then Intel has to come out with 45 different freakin' cores and speeds, including, what 6 different PIII's? Christ ...

From what I've read, you want a PIII in a FC PGA configuration - that's Flip Chip Pin Grid Array (?), AFAIK. This means the core of the CPU is positioned so that it can contact the heatsink fan combo for efficient cooling (versus the PPGA bullshit with the core facing *down* towards the mobo/sloket), like it's supposed to be. The 133MHz FSB speed is going to limit overclocking, I think, but it will ensure that you're getting the most out of the PC133 SDRAM that you should be buying. Infineon is an excellent brand for RAM, but any good quality PC133 should be okay. On the mobo, despite the slight performance lag, I think the VIA KX133 chipset is your best bet, *if* you don't want to overclock. There are a lot of BX boards out there that can run up to a 150MHz FSB speed, but that cranks your AGP and PCI buses up so high that you're going to have a hard time running a stable system. AFAIK, there are very few of the BX boards that allow you to cut your AGP and PCI buses to the appropriate speed when running an 133MHz FSB (i.e. backing the AGP slot to 1/2 and the PCI slots to 1/4. Don't quote me on that - I'm sure somebody here will pull one out their ass . The i810, i820 and i840 chipsets are the official Intel solutions for the 133MHz FSB FC PGA CuMine chips, but the i810 has integrated sound and video (FCUK that), and the i820 either 1) requires RAMBUS RAM (REALLY *FCUK* THAT), or 2) runs PC133 SDRAM via a chipset hack that *according to benchmarks* cuts system performance sharply. You could always go with a GX chipset (designed to run Xeon PIII's), but I don't see you wanting to drop $500 for a mobo ...

/end rant ...

I'd recommend the chipset guide that SJ (who?) pointed out, and taking a look around at sites like Ars-Technica - they've got a good breakdown on CuMine boards from a couple of weeks ago -
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/1q00/...permine-1.html

It's got clear cut recommendations and solid info - I trust the boys at Ars a bit more than some of the other sites around the 'net.



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Old 04-17-2000, 07:53 PM   #9
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

Get you a Celeron II 566 and o/c it to 877 like Guido over at FiringSquad did...hehe
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Old 04-17-2000, 08:18 PM   #10
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

If Guido can do it, anybody can!

Seriously, though...the Cel II looks like it's a pretty good performer, but I think I'd go with a CuMine. It'll only be a few bucks more than the Celeron after the 23rd and well worth it. Check out Anand's new Celeron O'Cing Guide for *tons* of benches.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, Smack, but from a business perspective can you really blame Intel trying to keep people from getting more value from their processors than they're paying for? AMD isn't exactly making o'cing easy, either. Sure, I'm o'cing my K7 650 to 800, but only after a $50 GFD and risking the cpu cutting into it.

I will agree that Rambus and i840/20 chipsets both suck. Integrated = bad in my book.
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Old 04-17-2000, 09:01 PM   #11
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

I'm not blaming Intel or AMD for trying to shut down overclocking. Supporting it officially would be paramount to financial suicide, as the large majority of people have no clue that a PIII 500 / Athlon 550 is the exact same freaking CPU as a PIII 800/Athlon 850 in most cases. I think sales of those $750 PIII's and Athlon 850's might take a sharp nosedive into the pit of hell they belong in .

I was just saying I wasn't aware (again, correct me if Abit or ASUS is ahead of me) of a BX board that would enable you to run the 133MHz FSB without putting your AGP and PCI slots way out of spec. It would be nice if they would release a decent chipset that would compete with the KX133 feature-wise and have the Intel quality/stability factor as well. I personally love the Shuttle BX board I've got for my older system - solid as a rock, no compatibility issues, etc. Just that if you want to utilize the 133MHz FSB CuMines and PC133 SDRAM, your best option is (for better or worse) a VIA KX133 based board.

I think the main thing here is that Kamala's not initially interested in OC'ing - he's just trying to sort through the blizzard of horseshit that is the CPU market right now .

On the Cel II's - if they'd officially support the 100MHz FSB for the Cel's, and punch the CuMines to a strict 133MHz FSB, they'd take over the fvckin' world. The Cel II would become the new 300A. Although from the Anandtech stuff, it looks like they're having quite a bit of success with the 533 Cel II's. I just want to be able to utilize my BX board for another year by running a 533 /566/600 Cel II on it, with a 100MHz FSB (to utilize that PC100 RAM I paid for last year), and get some decent system performance - without OC'ing. If Intel really wants to get rid of OC'ing, or reduce it, give the consumer something they want, instead of this half ass BS ...



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Old 04-17-2000, 09:07 PM   #12
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

I think the 440BX2 will go up to the P3 800, that would probably be my pick (based on my experience with the 440BX)

Dont ask me about my experience with any VIA or ALI chipset...if someone calls up (3dfx support) and has a mobo problem, or any prob for that matter, its either onboard video or a piece of sheeeet mobo based on a VIA or ALI chipset...
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Old 04-17-2000, 09:14 PM   #13
Smack2
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

One correction - I've been referring to the KX133 chipset - it's just the VIA 133A according to Anand. The KX133 is for Athlon CPU's.

On the VIA/Apollo thing - the inital incarnation of the Super 7 boards by VIA and Apollo did have a lot of problems with AGP solutions - everything I've read about the new ones indicates they've got a solid, stable chipset on their hands this time.

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Old 04-17-2000, 11:01 PM   #14
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

One MORE correction - goddamn ... there are two versions of this chipset for Intel CPU's - the Via Apollo Pro 133, with support for AGP 1 and 2X, and the Via Apollo Pro 133A, which supports a flavor of RAM that will probably never see daylight, and AGP 1, 2, and 4X. The support for AGP4X is just about useless at this point, as there are practically no benefits or gains going from 2X to 4X - according to what I've read, until DDR RAM becomes available for system memory (scheduled for late this year from VIA), AGP 4X is just another feature to tick off on a spec sheet.

Check out this set of reviews over at Tom's Hardware, as well:
http://www.tomshardware.com/mainboar...410/index.html

There are a bunch of links in his mainboard guide section comparing different features and problems with the various chipsets. As always, keep in mind that he's been bought and sold quite a few times, and passes his affections around like a two-dollar whore. However, his benchmarks and testing processes seem pretty thorough. I personally prefer Anand for his substantial lack of bias on reviews ...


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Old 04-18-2000, 12:08 AM   #15
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

OK, slayerwhateverthefvckhisnameis's breakdown is whacked.

Badman's is good, except that the "e" is a designation for the coppermine (.018) core. A "b" is a designation for 133mhz fsb.
For instance: A P3-600 is a .025 core, with a 100mhz fsb. A P3-600e is a .018 core, with a 100fsb. A P3-600eb is a .018 core, with a 133fsb.
The e chips overclock very well to 133mhz, with the exception of the week 6 and week 9 PGA chips.
The P3 is not necessarily a coppermine core.

True, the Celeron II's (coppermine core) will overclock very well. But every benchmark that I've seen, shows a P3e outperforming the celeron's, even when at a significant mhz disadvantage.

The AnandTech link that Lanik pimped is the best article I've seen to date, regarding the new Celerons.

I just picked up a P3-600e (Slot1) chip today, to go along with my Asus P3V4X (Via133) mobo. I'll be installing it either tomorrow or Wednesday, and hopefully cranking it up to 800mhz. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

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[This message has been edited by Wingznut [PEZ] (edited 04-18-2000).]
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Old 04-18-2000, 12:11 AM   #16
Smack2
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

More info from Tom:
http://www7.tomshardware.com/mainboa...ap133a-33.html

His testing makes it look like you need to go for the 133A, if you go the Via route. The older 133 just doesn't cut it. That ASUS mobo looks like an ass-kicking piece of hardware, IMHO ..



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Old 04-18-2000, 04:17 AM   #17
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

Badman, you may have that stuff but you don't use it.

I practically do apart from me having an AWE64 and a V2 aswell as a 4MB video card.

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Old 04-18-2000, 10:01 AM   #18
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

Heh, I got the "e" thingy screwed up, sorry .

Actually I'm playing SiN on that badass mofo, SC .
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Old 04-18-2000, 11:18 AM   #19
kAmALA
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

dam it, you slapnutts are pushing the
envelope of human understanding.

screw making a mess myself, anyone know where
i can pick up a good ast or compaq ?
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Old 04-18-2000, 11:50 AM   #20
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

You're absolutely right, Smack. I did some reasearch,asked around and BX's apparently can't have a 1/2 AGP clock ratio meaning a no-go for 100-133 FSB o'cing of CuMines. That's why I'll have to get a Via-based board.

If Nippsy Russel isn't going to o'c and wants 133, then he'll have to go Via obviously.

I would love to be singing the praises of Via, but they'll have to improve their AGP interface for me to do that. That looks to be the reason why it's not kicking the BX's ass.
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Old 04-21-2000, 08:37 AM   #21
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

Yeah, and the quality of the PCB they're using (4-layer versus 6) seems to be hurting in the stability department. I picked up a K77V by Soltek for a friend's system, and I'm having fun trying to get the FSB +33MHz RAM setting to work without a Windows protection error. I'm going to do some BIOS tweaking tonight - I think I may have just tried to clock the RAM (Infineon PC133) with too low a CAS setting.

The VIA AGP implementation is definitely weaker, but I think the other features help balance it out a bit. The fact that there's no *really* viable Intel-based alternative is a pain, but for the Athlon systems the VIA setup beats the pants off the AMD750 based solutions.

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Old 04-21-2000, 02:30 PM   #22
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

A 4-layer boards should be more stable than a 6-layer board because there are less traces to interfere with signal quality. The only reason a particular board would be more stable than another in the layer department would be because there was inadequate insulation between the layers or the layer process is otherwise less precise. It could even be a signal quality problem related to capacitance (as in some of the 750-based designs) or even possibly a problem with something as high-level as their Southbridge.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...but for the Athlon systems the VIA setup beats the pants off the AMD750 based solutions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For me they really don't. I've had 0 problems with my Gigabyte 7IX and really don't see why I'd want to 'upgrade' to a Via board. Granted many of the 750 designs by other manufacturers are sub-par.
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Old 04-21-2000, 05:43 PM   #23
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

I guess I'd read somewhere that additional layers helped stability by giving the traces better insulation from each other, but that may have just been related to RAM sticks - I've been scanning a lot of articles at 3AM ...

I need a coupla million dollars so I can fire up a hardware lab and play with all this shit all day long ..


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Old 04-21-2000, 07:17 PM   #24
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

Ah, so it's layers of insulation between traces? Because I thought it was layers of traces. It just seems interesting that they would have 6 or 4 layers of insulation instead of just 1 larger one.
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Old 04-22-2000, 06:48 AM   #25
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Default Re: via, bx, apollo, ??? i am more confussed than ever ?

Like I said, I may be mistaken. I thought I read something along those lines at Anand or Ars, or maybe over at Ace's. I'm by no means an electrical engineer - I'm relying on my increasingly faulty memory ..

I'm going to run some torture tests on the new machine tonight and see what evil I can do to it. If it's got any stability problems, I'll probably swap it with my ASUS board. I'm guessing the Matrox G400 is probably not nearly the voltage hog that the GeForce is. I know it runs a whole lot cooler - I'm gonna try a bit of benching tonight as well.



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